Evidence of meeting #80 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 80 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee is meeting for a briefing on the mandate of the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Colleagues, appearing before us this evening for the first hour are the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, the Honourable Sean Fraser, and Kelly Gillis, deputy minister of infrastructure and communities. Welcome to you both.

For the second hour, we have Ms. Kelly Gillis once again, deputy minister of infrastructure and communities, and Marco Presutti, assistant deputy minister of investment, partnership and innovation.

Minister, I want to begin by saying how grateful we are for having you with us this evening. I'll turn the floor over to you, sir, for your opening remarks. You have five minutes.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I have a point of order on one issue.

I just want to clarify a housekeeping issue of whether or not we have one hour with the minister and if we are going to have two rounds.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

We have one full hour with the minister, and then the minister will be leaving. Mr. Presutti will be coming to sit in his place. There will be another hour with Ms. Gillis and Mr. Presutti.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Is there guarantee of two full rounds?

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Doing the math here, Dr. Lewis, we should be able to get through two full rounds if we turn the floor over to the honourable minister for his opening remarks right now.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Minister, the floor is yours.

October 4th, 2023 / 7:35 p.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Sean Fraser LiberalMinister of Housing

Thank you for inviting me to appear before you this evening to discuss the government's infrastructure priorities.

Thank you very much, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here with you this evening.

I'll just share that this committee is where I spent the first few years as a member of Parliament after the 2015 election. It was my top choice at the time. I feel very fortunate to be able to serve in the capacity that I currently do. I should point out that Mr. Badawey and Mr. Iacono in particular sat alongside me. It's good to see you guys again.

I'll be short with my comments to open so we can save time for questions and get through as many as committee members would like to have.

I'll start with the very basic premise that investing in infrastructure across this country is incredibly important. It creates jobs in the short term—typically good-paying jobs in industries that provide meaningful work to people. It also leaves communities better off, with assets that make the places that we all call home more livable, sustainable and prosperous.

The reality is that over the past eight years, we've seen a significant increase in the scale of public investments and infrastructure by the Government of Canada. This was principally through the investing in Canada infrastructure plan, which has led to many billions of dollars putting many thousands of Canadians to work and is helping communities in every region of the country build out their communities in ways that serve the needs of their residents.

There are a few specific areas that I think have been important to the work we've done as a government and that will continue to be important in the years ahead.

The first is public transit. I won't regale you with the details of the specific number of projects or dollars spent. I'll only indicate that when we invest in transit, we build communities that work more effectively for the people who call them home. We've seen, in small communities like mine and in big cities across the country, investments that are allowing people to better access the places where they go to work, the places where they live and the services that they rely upon.

The kinds of stories that I'm sure we've all heard in our constituency offices over our time as parliamentarians demonstrate the importance of public infrastructure, and transit in particular. I can't help but think of one of the very first meetings I took in my constituency office where a gentleman told me that he was unable to find work because he didn't have access to transit in our community. He was limited in his job hunt to places he could walk to, because he didn't have access to a car. These are the kinds of social and economic issues that people struggle with at an individual level when they go without the services that so many of us too often take for granted.

By making record investments in public transit, we can more easily facilitate people accessing economic opportunities for themselves, pursuing the activities they enjoy and accessing the services that their families rely upon.

Infrastructure is so much more than public transit. I think about the water and waste-water investments, which rarely capture the public's imagination, but when you deal with a water line that has burst, you know you need it.

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

So you chose to give $38 million to an organization, a company, that has $17 billion in assets, to do a retrofit on a luxury hotel instead of funding retrofitted homes for Canadians.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

No. There are a couple of objections I take to the pretense upon which that question rests.

First, I made no such decision. The bank operates independently of my office, and I think that's very important.

Second, when the bank loans money on commercial terms, the bank isn't giving money. It is loaning money to pursue an outcome of a different kind, in this case the retrofit of a building.

Third, the money that the bank would be putting into different projects, not just this but others, is typically not designed to build homes directly. We have other programs that contribute to those ends. I don't mean to be—

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you. I appreciate your explaining how the bank works, which I'm familiar with. However, Minister, my point is that these projects seem grotesquely elitist, and they're impoverishing Canadians. We know that this hotel is a profitable luxury hotel, yet the bank has chosen to fund a hotel to be retrofitted when Canadians barely have food to eat and when Canadians are sleeping in garages because they cannot afford apartments.

Do you not think that this is out of tune with the average Canadian and the need for Canadians to have affordable homes?

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I think there are distinct issues. I think I would agree with you that we absolutely need to do more to build affordable housing, to grow housing stock, to support vulnerable people. You and I will be aligned on that until the day I die.

Where I have disagreement is that it may be possible, in my opinion, to both support vulnerable Canadians and build more homes while we have separate programs that operate on commercial terms and loan money—not give away money—to allow institutions, organizations or buildings to make themselves more energy-efficient. In fact, I believe it is essential that we both pursue support for vulnerable people and fight climate change at the same time.

Given that this is an independent entity that is dealing on commercial terms, I don't see that the money that could be loaned and paid back takes away from the ability of the government to fund projects separately.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

The Infrastructure Bank has given $38 million, so it does take away from the projects that could be funded outside of that. I would submit to you that these pet projects are out of touch with the reality of Canadians.

I know that, in your role, you would have to meet with CEOs for updates. Have you met with the Fairmont CEO for an update to see how these funds are being spent?

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

No, I have not had a meeting with the Fairmont CEO on this particular project.

I would point out, though, that there are also a lot of other projects the bank has invested in around energy efficiency, connectivity for communities, reducing emissions in public transit and investing in economic opportunities like small modular reactors. There's quite a range, and I don't think that the individual project you've referred to encapsulates the full scale or scope of projects the bank has invested in to promote public good.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

How much time do I have?

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

You have 20 seconds.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Do you agree that affordability should be a core principle of the national building code?

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

There's more to it than that, but I think anything we can do to promote affordability is important.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis.

It is Mr. Iacono's turn now.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for six minutes.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, Minister.

I'm a little puzzled with the questioning, and I'd like you to clarify something, because I don't think it's what my friend across is stating with respect to the role and responsibility of the Infrastructure Bank. Can you please clarify that so that we know what limits the government has with respect to the bank?

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Sure. We as the Government of Canada created the Canada Infrastructure Bank. The purpose was to find new sources of capital that could be invested in infrastructure or in projects that generate positive social outcomes, whether they are building out communities, creating economic opportunities in growing industries or making our communities more energy-efficient.

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but those are the kinds of priorities that the bank would be reflecting upon. It operates independently of government. I don't have the ability to say, “Pick this project, and give them x dollars.” We can flag the priorities for the government that they can then invest in.

What we've seen is that the bank has actually attracted billions of dollars in capital that otherwise would not have been invested to make our communities more vibrant, prosperous or environmentally friendly. There is not necessarily an exact limit on the nature of projects, but there are priorities that they will pursue.

For what it's worth, I don't personally drive the investment decisions of the bank—I think that would actually be very dangerous—but its ability to operate independently on commercial terms is proving to be very successful. Despite a slower start, they've really accelerated the pace of investments, and I think it's going to have a very positive impact for the long term for Canadians.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Minister, for that clarification.

Also, you must agree that it is important that housing and infrastructure files be linked under your mandate.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

That's a good question.

I do agree. I think it's very important, and I think it's something that's going to create new opportunities. It's really obvious when you sit down and look at the opportunities to fund projects of the nature that we have funded over the last eight years or so in government. I look at the water and waste-water investments that we've made, which unlock housing. I look at public transit. We don't just move people around communities. We move them from the places where they live to the places where they work and receive services, whether it's taking their kids to soccer practice or whether it's taking a bus to a medical appointment and then getting back home.

When we actually think holistically about where we're investing money in infrastructure, we can make better decisions about how we're going to either unlock more housing or make communities more livable for people. I think combining housing and infrastructure into a single ministry is going to allow us to be more efficient with the decisions we make, and we can squeeze more productivity out of every federal dollar as a result. That is my view.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Minister, what advantages can be attributed to allowing federal regulatory agencies to respond more swiftly to housing cost fluctuations in Quebec in order to promote greater stability in the province's residential market?

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Which regulatory agencies are you referring to?