Evidence of meeting #80 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 80 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 18, 2023, the committee is meeting for a briefing on the mandate of the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Colleagues, appearing before us this evening for the first hour are the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, the Honourable Sean Fraser, and Kelly Gillis, deputy minister of infrastructure and communities. Welcome to you both.

For the second hour, we have Ms. Kelly Gillis once again, deputy minister of infrastructure and communities, and Marco Presutti, assistant deputy minister of investment, partnership and innovation.

Minister, I want to begin by saying how grateful we are for having you with us this evening. I'll turn the floor over to you, sir, for your opening remarks. You have five minutes.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I have a point of order on one issue.

I just want to clarify a housekeeping issue of whether or not we have one hour with the minister and if we are going to have two rounds.

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

We have one full hour with the minister, and then the minister will be leaving. Mr. Presutti will be coming to sit in his place. There will be another hour with Ms. Gillis and Mr. Presutti.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Is there guarantee of two full rounds?

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Doing the math here, Dr. Lewis, we should be able to get through two full rounds if we turn the floor over to the honourable minister for his opening remarks right now.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Minister, the floor is yours.

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

In addition to making sure we have access to clean water and waste-water infrastructure that allows our communities to function, we need to realize the importance of continuing to invest in the things we can't see that unlock opportunities for what I'm sure is a top priority of nearly everyone sitting around this table, which is the need to build more homes. If we don't invest in the water and waste-water infrastructure that communities demand, we can't hope to even sustain the communities that we enjoy today, let alone experience the rate of growth that we would all like to see.

Coming from Nova Scotia, it is particularly important to me that we continue to invest in climate-resilient infrastructure. Over the past 12 months of my life—a little more than a year, as of just a couple of weekends ago—we've seen a once-in-a-century hurricane and once-in-a-century floods and wildfires that we have never seen before. These have caused ungodly consequences for the people who live in my home province. They threaten critical infrastructure. We know that we need to continue to reduce our emissions if we're going to combat climate change, but we also have to build communities that can better adapt to the consequences of climate change that are now baked in, given the pollution that has occurred across the world for the past many decades.

In addition to continuing to invest in infrastructure that moves people and goods, allows us to have livable communities, expands water treatment so that we can build homes, and protects us against the consequences of climate change, we also need to be investing in communities and community assets: recreational properties, cultural properties, heritage properties. When we actually make the kinds of investments that make communities not just places where a person can find somewhere to sleep, but places where they can enjoy a full and meaningful life by engaging fully in their community and participating in activities that allow them to experience fulfilment, we can build healthier people and healthier communities.

We need to work together across levels of government. If we do that, I'm convinced that we can build a more prosperous, sustainable and healthy Canada for everyone in every region of the country.

Mr. Chair, you've given me the signal that my time is up. I'm happy to respect the clock and turn it over to you for questions.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll begin our line of questioning today with Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to ask you about one of the bank's projects that I find particularly concerning. The CIB has offered $38 million to KingSett Capital, which is the owner of the Fairmont Royal York hotel in downtown Toronto, to retrofit the building and make it net-zero. Why does the CIB need to fund KingSett Capital, which is a private equity firm that has $17 billion in assets?

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

The bank operates on commercial terms. They operate independent of my office, and I think that's essential if they're going to function. One priority of the bank is to invest in energy retrofits.

Keep in mind that when they loan money to a proponent, that money is typically paid back. They may take risks at times, as any commercial enterprise would, but my belief is that by allowing the bank some flexibility to pursue goals, including energy efficiency, we can actually achieve social outcomes that are important to Canadians, even when they engage private sector actors.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Okay. Let's talk about social outcomes. How many homes were created for the average Canadian from funding that $38-million Fairmont Royal York hotel net-zero retrofit project? How many homes were created for average Canadians by doing that?

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

That project didn't involve homes for Canadians. That was an energy retrofit of a different kind altogether.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Well, it is housing, so zero homes for Canadians. I'm going to answer the question for you. Actually zero homes were created from that $38 million.

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Yes.

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Do you realize that the cheapest hotel room at the Royal York is $450 a night and that the average Canadian cannot afford to stay at that hotel for even one night?

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

That wasn't a housing development launched by the government. That was a commercial deal that was reached to improve the energy efficiency of the building that you're talking about.

7:35 p.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Sean Fraser LiberalMinister of Housing

Thank you for inviting me to appear before you this evening to discuss the government's infrastructure priorities.

Thank you very much, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here with you this evening.

I'll just share that this committee is where I spent the first few years as a member of Parliament after the 2015 election. It was my top choice at the time. I feel very fortunate to be able to serve in the capacity that I currently do. I should point out that Mr. Badawey and Mr. Iacono in particular sat alongside me. It's good to see you guys again.

I'll be short with my comments to open so we can save time for questions and get through as many as committee members would like to have.

I'll start with the very basic premise that investing in infrastructure across this country is incredibly important. It creates jobs in the short term—typically good-paying jobs in industries that provide meaningful work to people. It also leaves communities better off, with assets that make the places that we all call home more livable, sustainable and prosperous.

The reality is that over the past eight years, we've seen a significant increase in the scale of public investments and infrastructure by the Government of Canada. This was principally through the investing in Canada infrastructure plan, which has led to many billions of dollars putting many thousands of Canadians to work and is helping communities in every region of the country build out their communities in ways that serve the needs of their residents.

There are a few specific areas that I think have been important to the work we've done as a government and that will continue to be important in the years ahead.

The first is public transit. I won't regale you with the details of the specific number of projects or dollars spent. I'll only indicate that when we invest in transit, we build communities that work more effectively for the people who call them home. We've seen, in small communities like mine and in big cities across the country, investments that are allowing people to better access the places where they go to work, the places where they live and the services that they rely upon.

The kinds of stories that I'm sure we've all heard in our constituency offices over our time as parliamentarians demonstrate the importance of public infrastructure, and transit in particular. I can't help but think of one of the very first meetings I took in my constituency office where a gentleman told me that he was unable to find work because he didn't have access to transit in our community. He was limited in his job hunt to places he could walk to, because he didn't have access to a car. These are the kinds of social and economic issues that people struggle with at an individual level when they go without the services that so many of us too often take for granted.

By making record investments in public transit, we can more easily facilitate people accessing economic opportunities for themselves, pursuing the activities they enjoy and accessing the services that their families rely upon.

Infrastructure is so much more than public transit. I think about the water and waste-water investments, which rarely capture the public's imagination, but when you deal with a water line that has burst, you know you need it.

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

So you chose to give $38 million to an organization, a company, that has $17 billion in assets, to do a retrofit on a luxury hotel instead of funding retrofitted homes for Canadians.

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

No. There are a couple of objections I take to the pretense upon which that question rests.

First, I made no such decision. The bank operates independently of my office, and I think that's very important.

Second, when the bank loans money on commercial terms, the bank isn't giving money. It is loaning money to pursue an outcome of a different kind, in this case the retrofit of a building.

Third, the money that the bank would be putting into different projects, not just this but others, is typically not designed to build homes directly. We have other programs that contribute to those ends. I don't mean to be—

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you. I appreciate your explaining how the bank works, which I'm familiar with. However, Minister, my point is that these projects seem grotesquely elitist, and they're impoverishing Canadians. We know that this hotel is a profitable luxury hotel, yet the bank has chosen to fund a hotel to be retrofitted when Canadians barely have food to eat and when Canadians are sleeping in garages because they cannot afford apartments.

Do you not think that this is out of tune with the average Canadian and the need for Canadians to have affordable homes?

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I think there are distinct issues. I think I would agree with you that we absolutely need to do more to build affordable housing, to grow housing stock, to support vulnerable people. You and I will be aligned on that until the day I die.

Where I have disagreement is that it may be possible, in my opinion, to both support vulnerable Canadians and build more homes while we have separate programs that operate on commercial terms and loan money—not give away money—to allow institutions, organizations or buildings to make themselves more energy-efficient. In fact, I believe it is essential that we both pursue support for vulnerable people and fight climate change at the same time.

Given that this is an independent entity that is dealing on commercial terms, I don't see that the money that could be loaned and paid back takes away from the ability of the government to fund projects separately.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

The Infrastructure Bank has given $38 million, so it does take away from the projects that could be funded outside of that. I would submit to you that these pet projects are out of touch with the reality of Canadians.

I know that, in your role, you would have to meet with CEOs for updates. Have you met with the Fairmont CEO for an update to see how these funds are being spent?

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

No, I have not had a meeting with the Fairmont CEO on this particular project.

I would point out, though, that there are also a lot of other projects the bank has invested in around energy efficiency, connectivity for communities, reducing emissions in public transit and investing in economic opportunities like small modular reactors. There's quite a range, and I don't think that the individual project you've referred to encapsulates the full scale or scope of projects the bank has invested in to promote public good.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

How much time do I have?