Transport Committee on Oct. 4th, 2023

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

The way we typically do our funding envelopes is that we can sometimes be flexible on a project-by-project basis with the proponent, but we typically have a ceiling, given the spending authorities Parliament gives us. To the extent that a jurisdiction would request specific changes to a project we make a funding award to, that would eat away at their ability to fund other projects. We don't have the ability, without Parliament authorizing additional spending, to simply say yes to every project that has experienced cost increases, as is happening across Canada right now.

There are some projects we are working through to try to make adjustments where possible, but there is an impact given that there is no increase in the ceiling of the fund.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

The City of Terrace has applied to the housing accelerator fund to enable the construction of 180 units of housing. On a national scale, that might not seem like a huge number, but for a community of 12,000 people, that's a significant impact on the housing issue in that community.

At a population of 12,000, they fall just over the threshold between the small, rural community stream and the large, urban community stream, so that puts them in the same funding stream as the city of Vancouver, the city of Winnipeg and the city of Toronto. They're concerned that smaller communities in that larger stream are going to be left out. I am wondering what approach your government is going to take to ensure equity between difference sizes of communities within that very large range of community sizes.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

This question is everything to me. As a local MP, I live in a community that has just shy of 10,000 people. I represent other communities that have just over 10,000 people, depending on how you define “community”. I want to personally engage, to the extent that I can, to find the best applications that are going to build the most homes and provide the greatest value for money. Communities that are just over the threshold that puts them in a new category will still be eligible and will be given full consideration.

There are some very large cities that have been identified as growth leaders, which we are going to be addressing first. Some of them have been announced already. However, those that are not among the growth leaders, which have been experiencing significant population gains in recent years, but still have a population large enough that they fall into the stream you mentioned will absolutely be eligible and will be given fair consideration.

My constituents would not forgive me if the case were otherwise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Next we have Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours once again. You have five minutes.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Minister, the Canadian Home Builders' Association appeared at this committee recently for a study on adapting infrastructure and resilient infrastructure. Several witnesses called for the affordability principle to be a core principle in the national building code.

Your government proposes some changes to the national building code under its emissions reduction plan that have been criticized by home builders as potentially increasing the cost of housing by an average of 8%.

Minister, I'm assuming that your department has done its analysis of the proposed regulations. Can you guarantee Canadians today that the emissions reduction plan won't raise the cost of housing for them?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

One thing that I think is fair to acknowledge is that it's cheaper to build a home that will result in more pollution. It's also cheaper to build a home that's dangerous to live in. There are certain minimum standards that I think we need to insist upon if we're dealing with modern buildings.

I can't live with myself if I am going to adopt policies that are going to result predictably in greater risks of the consequences of climate change impacting my community. If we can ensure, when we advance programs that are going to build new homes, that we're building homes that won't make the climate crisis worse and won't endanger families, for example, by ensuring that we have a building code that is up to snuff, then I think it's incumbent upon all of us to do the responsible thing and build homes at a scale that will help achieve the supply to fill the gap but also protect us against the consequences of climate change.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Minister, that is a fair answer, that it will cost more to build these types of homes. That's what this regulation, the emissions reduction plan, will essentially do, so the conclusion of the Home Builders' Association was not incorrect, based on your evidence.

I'm going to move on.

In June, your department tabled a five-year review of the CIB, as required by legislation. Your ministry's five-year review of the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank read essentially like a brochure, a pat on the back for what many people have said is a failed bank.

I submitted an Order Paper question on this review, and I received this document, which was full of blanks, no answers, just completely blank columns.

I asked your department through the Order Paper question for information specific to the submissions that stakeholders made. As I said, I got back 40 pages of just blank, empty columns. I find this lack of transparency very astounding, Minister. I am seeking from you today a commitment that, moving forward, there will be a spirit of transparency in providing this committee with the specific submissions made by the stakeholders that informed your review of the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

Can I get that commitment today, Minister?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I want to approach all things in the spirit of transparency. To the extent I can bring that spirit to the operations of the bank, I would like to.

Just as a further offer, if you want to dig in, we will have officials here during the second half of this meeting who know the bank inside and out. It's hard to comment specifically on the document. I'm not sure which document you're referring to or why there may have been blanks. Whether they were zero values or redactions, I'm not sure. But to the extent we can approach this with the spirit of transparency, I think that's good for all of us.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

How many minutes do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have one minute and 20 seconds, Dr. Lewis.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Minister, I know that Canada Infrastructure Bank projects have been discontinued, yet they did not appear at all in the review. May I understand why you omitted certain projects from that review?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm not sure about the specific projects that would have been omitted from the review.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There is the Fortis project, for example.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I don't have the information front of mind for every project that would have crossed the bank's desk. If you want to send a follow-up, I'll do my best to give you a fulsome answer subsequent to today's meeting, or feel free to ask the officials who will be joining for the second half as well.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I will do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 30 seconds, Dr. Lewis.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Minister, with respect to the question that my colleague asked you regarding why your government is just now proposing policies that will deal with the housing crisis when you have been in government for eight years, why is it that these policies are just coming out now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Give a 15-second response, please, Minister.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We started in 2017 with the national housing strategy. It was uniquely focused on low-income housing that was operating primarily outside of the market. We've had a renewed focus because we've seen the landscape change, and more middle-class families need homes as well at a rate that perhaps wasn't as prevalent in 2015 when we formed government.

I'm happy to elaborate in a subsequent answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Next, we have Ms. Murray.

Ms. Murray, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you very much.

I will be sharing the last minute with MP Morrice.

Congratulations on your new assignment, Minister Fraser.

I'm going to be talking about the part in your mandate that mentions investments in green infrastructure. The context I want to put on the table is that we have an urgent imperative to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions in Canada. We have strong targets that we share with the international community. We've been making progress, but we are going to have to find more things to do because some of the low-hanging fruit gets picked in the beginning.

I see buildings, housing and infrastructure, and the embedded carbon as an area that hasn't really been explored to the same degree as, say, energy management—

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I have a point of order.

I heard the member talk about a mandate and we haven't received a mandate letter yet. Does she have a mandate letter in her possession that we don't have? I'd like to be on the same page. I heard her speak about a mandate.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I have the mandates of the previous minister for housing and the previous minister for infrastructure, so I'm looking at the areas that are appropriate. If I called it his mandate incorrectly, I apologize for that, but that has been in the mandate of the government up until now.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Okay, thank you. I accept that. I just heard “in your mandate”, so I thought I was missing something not having that mandate letter.

Thank you for the clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Ms. Murray, I stopped your time, so you still have four minutes and two seconds left.