Transport Committee on Oct. 4th, 2023

[Kelly Gillis]

As the committee knows, infrastructure—especially when you're looking at large infrastructure—takes time to actually design, build and construct and to be in use. As we look at it from the financial close to when they're doing it, I think they're making great progress in investing in infrastructure that we need as a country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister Gillis.

Thank you very much, Mr. Muys.

Next, we have Mr. Badawey.

Mr. Badawey, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As an extension of the design, the build and the process, before that is getting the capacity in place, like the infrastructure to support the capacity that the project is going to need. That is what I want to talk about. Quite frankly, I appreciate the discussion, because it is an extension of the discussion we're having during the “Adapting Infrastructure to Face Climate Change” report we're just completing. Of course, we talked a lot about this, and I'm hoping the committee—in particular, some members of the committee—understands exactly what we are talking about when it comes to capacity, asset management, and of course, secondary planning as part of communities. That's what I want to talk about.

Quite frankly, one of the reasons I ran in 2015 to be up here, versus my former life as a mayor, was to expand the ability of the federal government to be more of a partner than it was previous to 2015. Because of the infrastructure deficits, it's important that this secondary planning be in place, which municipalities take on, to then enable success when they're entering into housing projects and asset management—everything we've been discussing today.

More specifically, I want to get a bit more granular on the capacity vis-à-vis infrastructure: water, waste water, roads, gutters, sidewalks, parks, and even the things you don't see that cost money with growth-related costs like policing, fire, EMS, public health, community services, and things of that nature. It's key, because it's bigger than the country when it comes to the cost, to leverage those funds with programs like the CIB, the accelerator, disaster mitigation and GST. Equally important, if not most important, is the Canada community-building fund, which I want to get to in a second. Otherwise, basically, the impacts of the finances you need to make all that happen, if you don't leverage those funds with federal, provincial, municipal and private sectors, default on the property taxpayer and the capital fixed charge on the water bills. The bottom line is that it defaults on taxpayers.

I would like you to talk about how important it is that we actually be a partner in that process. Second, speak about the ability municipalities have through the Canada community-building fund to accelerate a lot of this infrastructure work simply because they're able to get an annual—the key word here is “annual”—contribution from the Canada community-building fund that accelerates due to debenturing. Instead of pay-as-you-go, they can take on a $30-million debenture, accelerate that infrastructure fund, accelerate the housing and everything else that has to be accelerated with respect to the capacity and the capital work, and then pay for that debenture over time with the Canada community-building fund.

[Kelly Gillis]

When we look at the infrastructure we have in the country—and we have over a trillion dollars of assets—we see that the majority of it, 71%, is in public infrastructure. Our ability to be good custodians requires good planning. We need to have asset managers who understand the infrastructure that they have, the state it's in, and the state of the environment that it's living in now and into the future.

The Canada community-building fund is a predictable, stable source of funding so that communities can actually save from one year to the next, and they can plan against.... It also supports planning, so they can actually use that to be able to do asset management plans. They can use it to understand the technology that they need in order to invest, and understand where the investments need to be made. It's a very flexible program. It has a number of different asset classes that it can invest in for the hard infrastructure, but it also supports the capacity that you're talking about, to do the thinking and the thought leadership to be able to put the plan in place so that they're making the right investments at the right time.

Going back to the integration of housing and infrastructure together, as we look at the need for housing, we have to have that core infrastructure in place to be able to support the increased number of houses, so the water infrastructure you're talking about is critical, and the minister mentioned that as well. We are hearing about that from different communities: What are the dependencies to be able to make that a realization?

The investments that we've been making—since 2015, $79 billion in investments from this department in those types of infrastructure—are really important.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I think it's key to that, Ms. Gillis, and I thank you for that. This is the bottom line, the discussion that we're having today. If we don't have those mechanisms, those levers, in place with all these programs that we've introduced since 2015—whether it be the disaster mitigation fund, the CIB, the accelerator, the GST, and of course, lastly, the Canada community-building fund we spoke of—simply put, it ends up on the property taxpayer. When you look at your water bill at the end of the month and you see those two charges, one is your operating charge that you can control, based on what you use, but the other one is an actual capital fixed rate you can't control. If, in fact, we don't have these programs in place, when you look at that water bill, you see that that capital fixed rate just gets bigger and bigger, because of the work that has to be done. On the other side of that is your property tax bill. Both rise without these programs.

With these programs in place, it mitigates some of the challenges that the property taxpayer and the water bill payer would otherwise pay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Badawey.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Gillis, as noted earlier, you have quite a bit of experience. As deputy minister, you are the main architect of activities and what happens in cabinet. You are the executive director, in a sense. The minister is not necessarily directly involved in the operations and the way things work, but you are. I bring this up because someone mentioned the mandate letters earlier.

Have you ever received such a letter from the Prime Minister?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

No, ministerial mandate letters from the Prime Minister's Office go directly to the minister. I don't see them until after that.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I am trying to understand how a country can be governed with mandate letters that date back to 2021.

As I recall, we were still in the midst of the pandemic in 2021 and inflation wasn't rampant as it is now. Objectively, I think a lot has changed since 2021.

As I understand it, without a mandate letter from 2023, you are still following the one from 2021.

Is that correct?

[Kelly Gillis]

We are continuing to work with the programs we have, such as the Disaster Mitigation and Adaptation Fund. For the whole country, with regard to housing needs, for instance, we are continuing to work on the government's priorities.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Okay.

So you are continuing to work on what was already in progress. So I gather there is no new direction. Even though there was a cabinet shuffle, there is really no direction.

I have one last question for you, regarding the Canada Communities Building Fund, which is coming to an end on December 31.

What will happen to municipalities in Quebec on January 1, 2024? What will they do if they need funding for their projects?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Excuse me, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Just quickly, before you answer that, Deputy Minister Gillis, I want to make sure the translation is working correctly for everybody.

Is it working for everybody?

Okay. The floor is yours, Ms. Gillis.

[Kelly Gillis]

I want to thank the member for his question.

The program will end on March 31, 2024, not December 31, 2023. We are engaged in many discussions with all the provinces and territories. That started a year ago and I expect the necessary agreements will be in place before March 31, 2024.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Next we have Ms. Zarrillo.

The floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to revisit that knowledge base and just having those voices at the table, and some of the work you're doing around the planning and asset management that you spoke about. I want to talk about the Canadian Public Works Association.

The Canadian Public Works Association has come to see me multiple times, saying that they would like to have a seat at the table to talk about what's happening with their workers on the ground. We also have mayors around that advocacy table who talk about the fact that they can't even do asset planning because they don't have computers to do it. They don't have the software and they're not funded for that through Infrastructure Canada.

I think there's a lot of good knowledge there. Could I ask Infrastructure Canada to please have a meeting with the Canadian Public Works Association and include them in some of these discussions and planning? It's early days, and they deal with the aftermath of climate change all the time.

[Kelly Gillis]

I would be happy to meet with them.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That would be awesome. Thank you so much.

Also, you mentioned the planning, and I know that first nation communities have a very difficult time planning because their funding comes year by year. It's very hard for them to plan out. Is there any change planned for first nation communities to give them longer planning windows so they can actually plan for the infrastructure that's needed?

[Kelly Gillis]

For Infrastructure Canada, we work closely with Indigenous Services Canada, who are the primary infrastructure funders for first nation communities, and they are changing the framework to be able to work with first nation communities, for them to have longer lead times and autonomy over the types of infrastructure they're investing in for their communities.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That's great. Thank you.

I'll close with this. The minister mentioned the word “social”, which did come up in his presentation today, and you've mentioned it a couple of times. I'm just going to say, for the Bloc member who raised it today.... How can the mandate still be the same? I think there is more focus on social infrastructure and why it matters to build community social safety nets.

Is there a way for the ministry to advise the minister on making changes to the mandates that are given to you? Are you able to see things happening in the data and say, “Send that up to the minister himself”?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

We'll have a 10-second response, please, Ms. Gillis.

[Kelly Gillis]

Yes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thanks to both of you.

Finally, we have Mr. Seeback.

The floor is yours, Mr. Seeback. You have five minutes, sir.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank you for giving me nine minutes to take us right to 9:30, as I'm a new member—

[Voices]

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