Transport Committee on Oct. 4th, 2023

[Kelly Gillis]

Evergreen is a non-profit organization that works with municipalities on training and on looking at different opportunities to make sure they have practices in place within communities. It is not a company. It's a non-profit organization.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

How will the first round of the smart cities challenge differ from the second round that you're proposing?

[Kelly Gillis]

There haven't been decisions on the exact program dynamics of the next round of the smart cities challenge. We're taking the landscape into consideration. We'll be making decisions with the government going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Deputy Minister Gillis.

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Next we have Mr. Rogers.

The floor is yours, sir. You have six minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was fortunate enough to be in Gander today doing a major announcement on behalf of Minister Fraser. It's an affordable housing project that was done in partnership with the province and the Town of Gander, the municipality. It was a great day and an exciting project for that particular municipality.

From that, I want to ask a couple of questions. First of all, can you elaborate more on our government's ambitious plans to support building homes quickly? Either one of you can speak on this.

[Kelly Gillis]

The minister spoke about moving forward in working in partnership with other orders of government, looking at all of the federal levers and putting them in place as being very important to the government. Working from Infrastructure Canada to bring infrastructure and housing together is one of those ways, as we look at communities and the importance of bringing into consideration the necessary infrastructure investments that are required to be able to densify and augment the housing needs within communities.

Then it's about working very much in partnership with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and a number of the programs that they have in place right now, such as the rapid housing initiative, the rental construction financing initiative, and the co-investment fund. There are a number of programs that exist now.

It's about looking at what more is required as we look at the challenges ahead, very much in partnership with our provinces, territories and municipalities, as well as the private sector.

There is a lot of work to do, but we have put different programs in place, like the GST rebate that just happened or increasing the financing capabilities of the CMHC by raising the Canada mortgage bonds. We're looking at what more we can do immediately to make a difference.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you.

I'm looking at it from a municipal perspective, as a former mayor. How important are municipal governments going to be in our efforts to generate more housing in terms of initiating projects or advancing projects with the province and the federal government?

[Kelly Gillis]

Municipalities are critical. They're at the front line. Housing and infrastructure are very local. Working in partnership with all three orders of government is going to be critical.

The program I should have mentioned as well is the housing accelerator fund. Those are agreements directly with municipalities, giving them funding to change and address barriers at the municipal level to be able to expedite and accelerate the building of homes in their own communities. It's very much tailored to the issues within that municipality that need to be addressed for them to be able to make a difference within their communities.

Municipalities would be very important in other programs as well, including the project that you just announced today.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Just to follow up on that, communities, as you said, are on the front lines when it comes to the impact of these projects and funding programs, but also the impact of climate change. In particular, in my riding, many of the communities are coastal. They depend on the water for jobs, food and infrastructure.

What can you tell us about the action the federal government is taking to help increase the climate resiliency of communities across the country?

[Kelly Gillis]

When we look at the work that we've been doing on resiliency, we see that it's been quite expensive. It's not just about the really important investments in the capital infrastructure to make the actual infrastructure more resilient, but also about how we build. We've invested $120 million in working with the National Research Council and the Standards Council to develop new standards and guides to help people build for the weather that we're facing now and into the future. We are taking that into consideration, as well as supporting asset management and taking into consideration climate change with asset management so communities have better knowledge and tools to enable them to be the custodians of the infrastructure they have with the weather and the severity that they're facing, to ensure that they have the integrity within the infrastructure.

As well, we have a disaster mitigation and adaptation program that has just closed, which is about $1 billion. We'll be making more capital investments both in the built environment and in the natural infrastructure in the near term.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

When it comes to disaster mitigation, many of the communities in my riding have been experiencing coastal erosion and major problems. Recently I was fortunate to have four projects approved in my riding to do things like coastal work with armour stone and that kind of thing. It's really valuable and important for these communities.

In the future, are we going to continue to fund that or expand that kind of program?

[Kelly Gillis]

As I mentioned, we are just doing a final round with the funding of almost a billion dollars. We have, in coastal erosion, invested in 11 projects for $252 million. It has been a significant investment to mitigate against that particular threat to our communities.

Floods have certainly been the largest threat we've been investing to mitigate, about two-thirds or $1.7 billion, because we've had a number of projects that have already been approved, but right now we've just closed an application, and we'll be making decisions over the coming months on further investments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister Gillis.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome once again, Ms. Gillis. I don't know how long you have been with the department, but it seems you are part of the furniture. So you will certainly be able to answer our questions today.

I would also like to ask you something that I did not have the chance to ask the minister earlier. I am referring to the impact of inflation on budgets, particularly municipalities' budgets. A number of them have called to say they have a problem: they issued a call for tenders to build a new sports centre, for example, but in the end the sports centre will cost twice what they budgeted. They have appealed to Quebec to increase the funding it provides. Quebec says it will. They have also tried to find out if the federal government can increase its financial participation. In the end, however, the municipalities are not receiving additional funding so the projects cannot be completed.

Is the government aware of this problem? Do you anticipate reviewing your policies so the projects can be completed? Inflation has unfortunately led to cost overruns. Everything costs more. Since everyone is paying more, so should the federal government.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

We evaluate projects and cost increases on a case-by-case basis. We look at the scope of the project, and determine whether we can work with the community or the province to see what options are available to us. As to future programs, we have to consider unforeseen events to ensure that we take potential cost changes into account.

We work on a case-by-case basis to assess the options, and we work with Quebec. Sometimes we find solutions, but sometimes there are fewer options. It really depends how far along in the construction process the project is.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

My next question pertains to the fund. We talked about the importance of adapting to climate change, which I consider very important. Yet the witnesses who have appeared before the committee all told us the same thing, that there is not enough money.

Earlier you said that no more applications will be accepted under the fund. What can we tell municipalities who say they need funding to adapt to climate change?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

The call for projects for the Disaster Mitigation and Adaptation Fund has just closed; we received the last applications a few months ago.

First, we will soon be able to invest more in infrastructure adaptation. Further, we will look at the shape of future programs once we have made our decisions for this fund. At the same time, we are investing in codes, standards and tools to help communities better understand how to plan in order to make their infrastructure more resilient.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

My next question pertains to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, or CIB.

Among the solutions mentioned to enable the CIB to meet community needs, we could include provinces and municipalities at the decision-making table. Can you tell us whether such a consultation process exists?

For instance, when the CIB decides to invest in a project in Quebec, is there a process requiring it to confer with Quebec? Even though these are federal investments in infrastructure, it is very likely that the project will fall partially if not entirely under Quebec's jurisdiction.

[Kelly Gillis]

The CIB's board of directors selects the projects it invests in.

As to the communication process and discussions with the various orders of government, the CIB has many discussions, depending on the project, but not with the federal government. Those discussions are within the CIB itself, so it can make the decisions it considers appropriate for the government of Quebec or communities in Quebec.

I know it has invested in various projects in Quebec and has had discussions with the Quebec government.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

So, if I understand correctly, the CIB often has its own discussions with the Quebec government, but there is no directive or requirement from Infrastructure Canada, for instance, for the CIB to do so every time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Give a 15-second response, please.

[Kelly Gillis]

No, the CIB determines its own process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Next we have Ms. Zarrillo.

Ms. Zarrillo, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for being here today.

This committee has recently gone through a study on adapting infrastructure to face climate change. From the witness testimony, we heard overwhelmingly that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

When I think about the infrastructure deficit in communities across Canada, which the minister mentioned today, it's insurmountable at this point. With the growing impacts of climate change, I'm wondering what Infrastructure Canada is planning to do differently to address this growing deficit.

[Kelly Gillis]

As we look at resilience and adaptation, it is a really important area of opportunity for the country and investment need, but as I was explaining a minute ago, not just the capital investment at the end but also what we like to explain as a value chain, doing research. We have our research program to understand what we need to know from the changes in wind, for heat and for green canopies. How do we know that those things are going to make a difference? How do we change that in the way we build? We're investing with the National Research Council and the Standards Council in bringing different codes, standards and knowledge into application for communities and for the construction industry.

We're also working with tools to be able to provide to communities to take.... There's a lot of information out there, but how do you practically put that into use? To be able to know, if I live in this community in this part of Canada, that this is the forecast of change of weather that I'm going to be facing and that these are the types of infrastructure investments and codes that I should be thinking about for my infrastructure...and then also supporting asset management and being able to take that into being good custodians. Then finally, downstream, it's taking that knowledge into consideration and making the right investments for the long term.

That's how we're looking at infrastructure and doing it differently for the future.