Transport Committee on Oct. 16th, 2023

[Serge Bijimine]

I'm not sure we have one. That said, if we don't, we'll request one.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Okay.

My next question is about infrastructure. If I remember correctly, there is a provision somewhere that talks about blockading infrastructure, specifically blockading rail lines. If I'm not mistaken, this also affects ports. It's mentioned somewhere that it is forbidden to block infrastructures in a way that jeopardizes safety.

What is the practical effect of this provision? Why did you feel the need to add this to the act?

[Lisa Setlakwe, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport]

There have been cases where blockades have had an impact on the supply chain and people's safety.

We work closely with law enforcement agencies to ensure that transportation routes, especially railroads, operate efficiently and safely.

We have been made aware of situations involving dangerous and worrying behaviour.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

When you talk about situations, are you referring specifically to the blockades by indigenous protesters in 2020 and 2021?

[Lisa Setlakwe]

That's one example, yes. There have been others where people have intentionally done certain things, which were dangerous, including for those in charge of operations. These situations can sometimes occur on passenger trains and it is—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I know that the idea is to strongly discourage people who want to block the tracks from doing so. Since injunction proceedings already exist, however, I question the need for such a provision, but you may have some strong arguments to convince me.

I also want to talk about appointing chairs of the port boards of directors. Why did you feel the need to change how chairs are appointed? Do you feel that there are shortcomings in the way boards currently choose their chairs?

[Serge Bijimine]

We believe that ports are responsible for their day‑to‑day operations. They're also responsible for having a strategic plan. The minister is responsible for providing strategic direction to ports.

So we made that suggestion for the following reason. If the minister, who is responsible for the board of director's strategic vision, could appoint the chair, it would give him a little more assurance that the implementation of the strategic plan is in line with expectations.

As for day‑to‑day operations—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bijimine. Unfortunately, there isn't any time left.

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Next, we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing today to answer our questions and to help us understand in greater detail the bill before us.

I want to start with the work of this committee. As you're aware, this committee conducted a study early last year on the topic of railway safety in Canada. It's something that's of urgent concern to a lot of communities, particularly on the 10th anniversary of the disaster in Lac-Mégantic.

The report that we issued—I believe it was last May—included 33 recommendations. Some of them reflected things that communities and concerned citizens have been asking for, for a long time, yet the legislation in front of us reflects none of those recommendations. I'm wondering why that is.

[Stephen Scott, Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport]

Thank you for the question, Chair.

Yes, I do want to acknowledge that the May 2022 railway safety report by this committee, from our perspective, was a very helpful report. That report, along with reports from the Transportation Safety Board and the Office of the Auditor General, has fed into our continuous cycle of policy and regulatory modernization.

The legislative powers we currently have under the Railway Safety Act are quite broad. It gives us quite a lot of powers already. We are moving forward with most of the recommendations in that report. There are about 30 of them that either have been completed or have actions under way to complete them. We're able to do that within existing legislative authorities.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

My next question stems from the first one. One of the big concerns is around the reliance on safety management systems as the primary tool for ensuring the safety of our railroads. I think most Canadians who are concerned about railway safety would be surprised that the primary regulatory system for ensuring safety is a proprietary document that they're not allowed to read. There's very little transparency in terms of how these giant rail corporations are creating a culture and a system of safety in their operations.

The legislation before us envisions security management systems. I think most people would understand why having a company's security system be transparent and public might not be the best idea, but safety management systems seem like something that the public should have some line of sight on. Has the department considered making safety management systems public, as has been requested by advocates, communities and citizens concerned about rail safety?

[Stephen Scott]

With regard to the legislative framework, in our framework we have the umbrella legislation of the Railway Safety Act. Beneath that, we have 35 different regulations and rules. Beneath that are 25 engineering standards and guidelines. In the aggregate, this provides a fairly complex layer of authorities and a regulatory framework that guides safety in the rail industry.

Safety management systems are one set of those regulations. As the member noted, it's an important part of that overall layer of rules and requirements.

I will concede that we need to do a better job at effectiveness in safety management systems. That's something this committee has told us to do. That's something the Transportation Safety Board has told us to do. It's something that the Office of the Auditor General has told us to do, so we're doing it.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Scott, I don't think you answered the primary question: Why aren't they public?

[Stephen Scott]

As part of the work of our regulatory refresh, we began effectiveness audits in April of last year. The next step is to refresh the regulation because, to your point, it's a little dated. It's from 2015. As part of that work, we want to lock in some of that effectiveness approach that we've now started to do. Part of that will be looking at what other changes we need to make, including around issues that you're raising now around transparency.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

My next question is about the changes to the Marine Act. Proposed subsection 107.1(1) includes this language, which I believe my colleague has already cited:

If the Minister is of the opinion that there is a risk of imminent harm to national security, national economic security or competition that constitutes a significant threat to the safety and security of persons, goods, ships or port facilities or the security of supply chains,—

It's very broad wording.

—the Minister may, by order, require a port authority or a person in charge of a port facility to take any measure, including corrective measures, or stop any activity

In your earlier comments, you clarified that this was not intended to cover labour disruptions or labour action. Did the department consider specific wording that would exclude those cases from the scope of this legislation?

[Serge Bijimine]

We can definitely take it back and see if we can provide further clarification to make sure labour action is excluded. I can tell you it's not the spirit and it's not the intent. We can definitely clarify.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's one of the concerns.

I know I have 30 seconds; I'll try to fit in one more question.

One concern we've heard from port authorities is the slowness of Transport Canada and the minister in appointing board members to the boards of port authorities. I think the record among transport boards is one of the slowest across all of government. It seems like this act puts more of the responsibility for that process in the hands of the minister.

How is the department going to address the issue of timelines when it comes to appointing board directors?

[Serge Bijimine]

It is a multipronged approach. There's the minister, the PCO and the PMO. There are a whole bunch of actors. I can tell you that we have gotten together and we are all on board in lowering the 50%—or whatever that number was—to something much more manageable.

We're all in and do agree on getting people nominated for these positions as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Next we have Mr. Muys opening up our second round of questioning.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you.

Let me pick up on the discussion of supply chains. We all know the importance of the fluidity of supply chains to our economy. We saw that particularly during the pandemic and following the pandemic. That has an impact on prices for consumers. It's lost opportunities for our economy and lost opportunities for our farmers.

My friend and colleague mentioned 21 recommendations of the national supply chain task force. By the way, 13 of those were immediate. That was 21 months ago. I know you've indicated that some of those are included within Bill C-33.

Maybe you could explain exactly how new advisory panels, new regulations and new powers for the minister actually benefit supply chains and not just Ottawa bureaucrats.

[Serge Bijimine]

I'll mention a few things in the bill that benefit the supply chain, and then I'll talk about the advisory committees.

One key element of Bill C-33 is around data. There are two parts to it. One part is data for operational efficiency, so, for the first time, ports will now have access to data for operational efficiency. The second part is data for visibility. Having that data will allow the ports to better plan and manage traffic and ensure the fluidity of the port operations. That is a very crucial part of it, combined with other measures that we're hoping pass through this bill to give those ports additional access and power to help traffic beyond their current waters. I would say those are really key things that will be helpful.

On the advisory committees, we also think that, at the same time that ports are focused on supply chain efficiency and fluidity, the input of the community should be taken into account. The current bill proposes that three committees be established: a local committee, a stakeholder committee and an indigenous committee. We really think having those three committees at the table, along with a focus on supply chain efficiency and fluidity, is the right approach to take. The port has numerous stakeholders, numerous shareholders—small-s shareholders—and making sure that all those folks are on board as these activities start taking place will be the right way to ensure that it's done successfully.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

I'm glad you mentioned data and reporting requirements, because that burden disproportionately impacts smaller ports versus larger ports in going through all those processes and reporting that back to Transport Canada, and other requirements.

Has there been any analysis done of the costs to ports of these new requirements and how they would differ?

[Serge Bijimine]

Those are regulatory-making powers and, during the regulatory phase, there will be a reassessment of the regulatory impact. It's done through the regulatory impact assessment stage.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

We're going to look at a piece of legislation that imposes requirements for which no cost analysis has been done.

[Serge Bijimine]

I'm sorry; can you repeat your question?