Transport Committee on Nov. 8th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

That is a very good question, Mr. Bachrach.

I'll turn it over to the mover of the motion for clarification on what he had in mind.

Mr. Strahl, go ahead.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I think we can discuss that. We obviously have some motions in the queue on things like recreational boating, etc., that are for future studies when it's the Bloc Québécois's turn to call a motion, so this would simply be a motion that we would consider when we were coming to that part of the calendar.

I know we have some things before us right now—Bill C-33 and finishing this HFR study—so it would simply be one of the ones we could choose from when we have a committee business meeting, but obviously we would like to have this as soon as possible, given the timeliness of the environment commissioner's comments yesterday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much for the clarification, Mr. Strahl.

If there are no other questions or comments, colleagues, we will go to a recorded vote on the motion that was put forward by Mr. Strahl.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Mr. Strahl, I'll turn the floor back over to you.

You have three minutes and 52 seconds left for your line of questioning, sir.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

To the witnesses, we had some information come to light today. There was an Order Paper question that was tabled in the House of Commons just this afternoon that talked about some of the costs that have already been incurred by Transport Canada when it comes to high-frequency rail.

I just wanted to get your comments. One of the lines we noted was that over $18 million has been paid to the Canada Infrastructure Bank for technical services. Given the controversy that's been surrounding the Canada Infrastructure Bank—in fact, this committee recommended that it be disbanded entirely—I'm just wondering if you can talk about what value for taxpayers was achieved by Transport Canada giving $18 million to the Canada Infrastructure Bank for technical services related to high-frequency rail.

[Vincent Robitaille]

Thank you.

The $18 million in question is with regard to services that were actually subcontracted by the Canada Infrastructure Bank, primarily for engineering studies performed by firms like Aecon and Arup, as well as the contracts with Ernst & Young. Many elements went into preparing the request for proposals that we launched last month.

Very few services were directly offered by employees of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. It was really for the technical work that was necessary to advance the project before Via HFR was created.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

We also noted that an amount of about $178,000 in direct contracts from Transport Canada was given to WSP Canada to study the project. I would note that they were also invited, or on the short list, to submit a proposal for the project. How did you ensure that a company that had already been contracted to do work on the preliminary studies for this project wasn't given an advantage over the other companies that were invited to submit for the RFP?

[Vincent Robitaille]

Those are very good questions. Thank you. They're very important.

Whenever there is preliminary work done like this on studies, the information is made available to all bidders. We're talking about studies that were done a few years ago. The number of firms qualified to do projects as large as HFR is limited, so we make sure that if we release them, and they've completed their obligations, we make the material that they've done available to everybody in an electronic data room. That way, everybody has access to the same information.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Okay.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 35 seconds, Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I will turn that over to the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us this evening.

My question is for whoever feels comfortable answering it.

How will high frequency rail improve accessibility for Canadians? I am thinking particularly of the National Capital Region, where students attending the University of Ottawa, as I once did, and Carleton University take the train to work or school.

Also, how will it be determined which cities have stops? What criteria will guide the decision? Earlier, you mentioned Laval. I'm delighted to know that my riding and that of my colleague Ms. Koutrakis are among your choices.

[Vincent Robitaille]

Service will be greatly improved. There will be at least twice as many trains and trips every hour between the major cities. That will really provide greater flexibility, especially for students, who may come from another region and want to get back to their families when they finish their courses. They won't have to wait as long for the train, the train they take will be on time and the travel time will be shorter. This will mean they can spend more time with their family or more time at home. This applies to workers too, of course, and to everyone else. It will make the experience much more attractive for everyone. The train will become a better option for people who choose to drive right now, because the train will emit fewer greenhouse gases.

With regard to the cities selected, in my opening remarks, I mentioned the process we're following, in which the world's top consortia are competing robustly to find the best solutions. We need to determine such things as which cities have enough residents to generate an attractive ridership. HFR needs to enhance the quality of life for people in these communities, but it also needs to be efficient for trains to stop there. The studies being carried out as part of the request for proposals and those conducted once the partner has been selected will help determine that balance.

I should also mention that, although we're talking about 12 to 18 trains a day between two major urban centres, some trains may stop more often than others. There are many ways to configure the service. The challenge will be to find the optimal solution for everyone.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

What role will VIA Rail play in passenger rail services in the Quebec City-Toronto corridor once the public-private model is in place?

In addition, will the VIA HFR team build new, modernized tracks similar to the existing ones, buy the tracks currently used by CN and CP, or will it be a mix of both? What are your options?

[Vincent Robitaille]

I will start by answering the second question, if you don't mind.

With respect to the tracks that will be used, we expect the majority of trips to be completed on tracks reserved for passenger trains. We have several ways of doing this. For example, tracks can be built alongside existing ones, or a corridor can be established a little further out. Either way, trains will no longer be stopped or slowed down by freight trains. This will therefore increase the overall capacity of the system, both for passengers and freight.

That will be more difficult to do in some places, however, especially in downtown areas, where it may always be necessary to share tracks. It will be the responsibility of VIA HFR, the corporation that has been created, to negotiate access to those tracks in order to guarantee the service we need and increase the capacity of those tracks in downtown areas. We have already begun discussing this with such rail companies as CN and CPKC.

With regard to VIA Rail's role, we'll be working closely with it and with VIA HFR, the new Crown corporation, throughout the selection process. So VIA Rail has an important role to play. However, when the project is completed, all services in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor on will be of the public-private partnership's responsibility. As I mentioned in my remarks, we will see passenger numbers triple at least. Therefore, to provide service, all current employees will be needed, and thousands of new good jobs will even be created.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses.

At our meeting earlier this week on Monday, we welcomed Michel Leblanc from the Chamber of Commerce of Metropolitan Montreal. Supposing there were a high frequency train where the journey would take around 2 hours and 50 minutes, I asked him if he thought many people in the business community would decide to take the train rather than drive. He answered quite clearly that they would not. In fact, he was quite pessimistic about the resulting modal shift.

Do you have any data on the modal shift from car and plane to train that might result from this project, compared with the status quo or a high-speed rail project?

[Vincent Robitaille]

Yes. As I mentioned, we expect ridership throughout the corridor to increase to 17 million passengers, up from a peak of 4.9 million passengers before the pandemic.

I don't have specific data on the modal shift with me. However, given that few people fly between Montreal and Quebec City, the vast majority of new passengers will be people who used to drive.

Many factors will make people choose the train. We hear a lot about speed, but there are five main factors. First, there's the cost of tickets. Then there's the train schedule. Right now, between Montreal and Quebec City, there are often only four trains a day. There are—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I'm going to stop you there, because I have other questions for you. You answered my question quite thoroughly, but for the benefit of all committee members, I'd like to ask you to provide the documents on the projected modal shift the project will generate. You did say that you have them, just that you don't have them with you. It would be worthwhile for the committee members to have them.

If I understand correctly, you have data on the projected modal shift with the HFR project, compared with the status quo, but I'm not sure I understood whether you also have data on the projected modal shift if we had a high-speed rail project, for example, or a project that would combine the two.

[Vincent Robitaille]

We focused our studies on a model of train that can travel at up to 200 km/h. That said, one factor I mentioned is travel time. As travel times get shorter, ridership will continue to increase.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

If I understand correctly, you have no data on the projected modal shift for a high-speed rail project. The only data you have relates to a high frequency rail project.

[Vincent Robitaille]

That's right.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

The government was very clearly moving towards a high frequency rail project. However, how can the project be geared to one type of train over another without complete data on both scenarios?

[Vincent Robitaille]

As part of the RFP, we're asking for a full proposal, which includes a scenario with high-speed segments. The proposal must include projected ridership levels and revenue, as well as maintenance and construction costs. We're using the competition to obtain a truly comprehensive description of all possible benefits. That's what we're going to get from the RFP, which closes this summer.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

If I understand correctly, you also don't have any estimated modal shift data for the hybrid version of the project, which would include high-speed segments.