Transport Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

—we will take this one step at a time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

Next we have Mr. Muys.

Mr. Muys, it's good to have you back at committee. The floor is yours, sir. You have five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

All right. Thank you.

You talked about potential fines. You talked about the deductions that are being omitted by those who are taking advantage of the system.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

You mean independent contractors.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

Independent contractors.... Oh, sure, we'll use that [Inaudible—Editor].

Has the CRA quantified at all the amount of revenue that will be gained from this change, from this new model?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

We're projecting that the CRA will bring in revenue of $160 million over four years. We're going to invest $77 million to up enforcement, and we believe.... The number we've been working with is $160 million, if that's what you mean. Is that your question, or are you talking about what the cost to the economy is or what the loss is—

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

What's the actual revenue that the government is going to see in the treasury as a result?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

Yes, it would be $160 million over four years.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

Okay.

Doing some backward math then, with $77 million invested and $160 million gained.... We don't know the amount of enforcement that's going to take place and how many drivers or independent contractors are going to be sought out with this measure over four years.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

The CRA is doing compliance actions now. Once the CRA issues T4As.... Again, the problem is that, without a penalty for not issuing T4As.... I've been in business. There would be no incentive, at times, to issue them. If they're not issued, we can't find them; they're not in the system. Once more T4As are issued, that allows the CRA to track, to audit and to do compliance checks, so I think it's somewhat self-fulfilling. Once the moratorium is lifted, there are going to be all kinds of opportunities for the CRA to actually do checks and catch bad actors—

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

However, some of those—

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

—and people who aren't issuing T4As. We all know what happens.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

Some of those bad actors over the course of the last two years, without this lifting, have been discovered. Isn't that correct?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

That's right.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

Can you not extrapolate from that how many bad actors are going to be caught?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

We will continue to do compliance checks, audits, and check bad actors. I'm absolutely convinced the $77.6 million that we are investing in this budget will...

Again, let's be clear. There's not going to be a definitive moment when this is fixed. This is a moving target. It's evolving. I believe that $77.6 million is a big first step. I think that lifting the moratorium that the Harper government put in, in 2011, is a great step.

We are determined to strengthen the trucking industry. I know the trucking industry is extremely supportive, and we're very confident in these measures.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook—Brant North, ON]

Right, but we heard from the trucking industry. With all due respect, to point to something that took place 14 years ago to sort of absolve yourself of responsibility is fairly rich, because, obviously, this whole dumpster fire has festered over the last.... We heard that very clearly from the Canadian Trucking Alliance, and, frankly, not just at these hearings. I've been on this committee since 2021. We've had the Canadian Trucking Alliance here previously. We had those discussions. We've heard this, and no action was taken.

There's been talk of a joint task force and interdepartmental co-operation. That's what you're aiming for with these provisions, but, obviously, that's also taken place over the last couple of years.

Are there any actual measurable outcomes for what that looks like in terms of fines? In reference to a previous question, I know you talked about fines being scalable, but is there a target for the number of prosecutions and fines? What does enforcement actually look like?

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

When we allocate $77.6 million to the CRA, which we're allocating in the budget, it's going to up the enforcement efforts. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that when that moratorium is lifted and companies have T4As in the system, there will be more compliance checks and audits. We'll be able to catch and find bad actors.

We're projecting that this measure will generate $160 million, versus an investment, if you will, of $77 million.

You know what? On this one, it's not even really about the $160 million versus the $77 million to me. It's about levelling the playing field. It's about creating a stronger and healthier trucking industry for our country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

Finally, for this round, we have Mr. Kelloway for five minutes.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Sydney—Glace Bay, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's good to see the secretary of state and the department here.

My questions are going to focus on the department, and not the secretary of state, so you can drink your water, secretary of state, for at least five minutes.

The Bloc and the Conservatives are working together to pass a motion to have the CRA provide years of sensitive tax information. The motion calls for all documents, emails, and texts related to compliance. I'm just wondering if you could give us a sense of how much that would cost.

We've seen, at this committee, production of documents being leaked to media by members of the committee.

My second question is, what are the offences? I'm wondering if you could spend some time on this. What are the offences of or fines on someone who's providing the personal tax information of Canadians without their consent? That goes for everyone in this room.

[Jean-François Fortin, Deputy Commissioner, Canada Revenue Agency]

Thank you for the question.

I don't know if we'll be in a position to answer the first part of the question about the costs associated with a request to produce documents. First, we need to know a little more about the nature of the request and what it involves. We can follow up with the committee on that.

The same is true for sentences and penalties, but this issue is fundamental. First, it concerns the application of section 241 of the Income Tax Act, which, as you know, protects confidential information related to Canadian taxpayers.

We have a voluntary system. Through this system, the CRA gets highly sensitive information from all Canadians, and we need to protect that information. The worst penalty is a criminal offence, which can eventually lead to imprisonment. It's a serious matter. That explains why, at the CRA, we need to keep that information and put measures in place to protect it.

It also explains why the CRA can only disclose this type of information under certain circumstances. The decision to disclose must be based on memoranda of understanding and provisions of the act. However, in the absence of specific provisions allowing for the disclosure of confidential information, the CRA and each of its employees have an obligation to take measures to prevent confidential information from being shared outside the organization.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Sydney—Glace Bay, NS]

Thank you for that answer, in particular to the last question I asked about sensitive information, the fines and the consequences.

I must say that I said a little fib on my part, Secretary of State, as I am going to ask you a couple of questions, if that's okay.

I think that throughout this particular testimony, what I've liked is your experience in the private sector as a business owner. You can relate a lot to this file and, in particular, to the issue of Drivers Inc. Again, I think it's really important to stress the importance of the passing of this budget, because there are solutions on the table within this budget.

You've talked about the financial aspect. I want you to talk a little bit, if you can in the moments we have, to unpack in layman's terms, for those watching at home or those who will read the transcripts, what this money will do to initiate solutions, if you could.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

Thank you for the question, and good morning.

To your point, before I was blessed with an opportunity in politics, I was a small business owner. I worked for an international corporation, dealt with a lot of shippers and did a lot of shipping. Cents per pound is the difference at times for a shipper, or a company that is shipping, between being in business and not being in business, number one.

There are times when shippers may be tempted to go with a lower rate. That's fair; that's business, but if that lower rate is there because that player plays unfairly, doesn't pay his taxes, doesn't do his deductions, and who maybe doesn't train his workers and provides inferior equipment, it's not what will build our economy and make our sectors and economy strong. We need to correct that. That has been something that needs to be corrected.

Obviously you've had lots of testimony here at committee, and we're taking action. We're a new government. We were elected on April 28. I remember that day. I'm sure all members remember that day. I was given the privilege of having this role. I came into this role saying, “I'm going to take action. I'm going to identify problems, and I'm going to try to fix things in inequities I see”. This was an inequity. It was not a level and fair playing field for truckers and for shippers.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Kennebecasis, NB]

The actions we're taking in this generational, transformational budget are going to correct that.

Thank you.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Sydney—Glace Bay, NS]

Thank you.