Veterans Affairs Committee on Sept. 25th, 2006

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

If we're going to give these two soldiers' families...I think it would need to be the time that we were all in position in this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right, Mr. Sweet.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

As a reminder, we had three airmen lose their lives in a Cormorant crash off Canso in the late spring. That was during our time, and if we could send one out to them as well.... They weren't killed in combat, but their sacrifice is equal in the eyes of their families.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

As long as the parliamentary secretary or the minister's office has no protocol issues with that....

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I recognize that on this particular committee we don't play politics and our hearts are all in the right place. If you would give me time to give a bit of background, to see whether or not we can accommodate all....

You're absolutely correct that this is the first time we've sat as a stand-alone committee. So we do have the right to do some things that perhaps weren't done before when we were under the umbrella of the defence committee. I think everyone in this room would like to recognize the sacrifice of each and every family, and maybe that's the best way to do this.

So if you'd give me bit of time, I'll look into it for you and have an answer by Wednesday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Valley.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Hinton. I suspect some of the things you're going to run into.

But this is a stand-alone committee; we can blaze our own trail, to a certain degree. The committee will make its mind up, and you'll have advice to provide for us. But I think that as a stand-alone committee, we have the right to make that decision amongst ourselves. The information you bring back may or may not make that easier. But we're here, we can make a decision, and we don't want to step on toes. I know that's what you're checking into and making sure it's all okay.

But your first comments were absolutely right on. We all want the same thing, but we can make decisions here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I sense there is a will for this, and I'm just making sure we're all in good form for doing it.

Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

So we can leave here with clarity, I was only talking about getting all of the names, about compiling a list, etc., and getting the addresses, which is an issue that was raised. I have absolute belief that this is a stand-alone committee, that we determine our own destiny, and that we're certainly in a position to decide as a committee that we want to do this retroactively since we began sitting. So there's no argument there from me at all. The only thing I'm going to go back and look into is how easy it is to access these addresses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay. I think we have a general agreement to take this forward as of April, based on the idea of getting the lists available through the ministry, as well as dealing with people who died in non-combat situations. Fair enough.

I'm going to move on to the next letter, which is for the recently elected president. Once again, I hope everybody got copies, and are they en français as well? Okay.

This is to Mr. Jack Frost:

On behalf of the Veterans Affairs Committee, I would like to take this opportunity to commend you on your election as Dominion President of the Royal Canadian Legion.

Your contribution on behalf of Canadian veterans is greatly appreciated. I would like to extend an invitation for you to join us at one of our committee meetings in the near future. We look forward to meeting you, and wish you every success in your new challenge.

Sincerely,

Rob Anders

and so on.

Maybe borrowing from the discussion about the last letter, it should read: “On behalf of the Veterans Affairs Committee, we would like to take this opportunity...”. Is that fair? Okay.

Are there any contractions that are particularly offensive? I don't notice any.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Are there any other thoughts on the letter? It's pretty straight up. Are people okay with it? All right, thumbs up. Then we'll proceed on all three fronts.

I think that's really the kind of the business we want to get done for the day, unless anybody has anything else they desperately want to raise.

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I was mentioning to Madam Hinton earlier an article in The Hill Times today written by the Minister of Veterans Affairs about the veterans ombudsman and the new veterans bill of rights that they're proposing, which I think is a good thing. Do you know offhand when the minister will be able to appear before us to elaborate a bit more on his article? Also, you could sort of pick his brain a bit for what type of advice he would be seeking from us. I know estimates are coming, and he'll be in on that, but will he be able to come on that issue alone? I know those are two issues that he and the parliamentary secretary have raised, and it could probably take up a lot of his time just in his presentation and our questions to him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Before Mrs. Hinton has a chance to comment, I'd just like to say that I think the minister is always generally very happy to appear. I know he's always indicated that to me. That being said, for the next few weeks we do have a schedule laid out in terms of the Russian delegation that's coming to meet us that we've made previous arrangements on, etc.

Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I have just an open comment. We talked before the meeting began just briefly. I'm not familiar with the article you're referring to. The minister and I speak on a fairly regular basis, but that part hasn't come up. I'm not familiar with the article; I haven't read it.

I do know that the intent of this committee was to actually sit down together as a group, listen to witnesses, get input from different groups that are affected with regard to the ombudsman part of it, so that we can actually put forward some ideas to the minister that we'd like to see included. The same is true with all the other issues we're going to be looking at.

I think the minister is probably very open to coming--I agree with what the chairman has said--but we do have a rather busy agenda for the next little while. Our job is to actually sit down at these meetings and come up with some firm ideas after listening to a number of groups for whom this will be of great concern. So I'd like to try to move that along as quickly as we can so that we could actually have an opportunity to give meaningful input before the minister makes a decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Stoffer, I corroborate that. I know the minister is very, very keen to make appearances at the committee, so I don't think it will ever be a problem for us getting him, in a sense, other than something barring his schedule or something like that. For at least the next couple of weeks, we've got things to deal with. We'll get him in after we have a chance to probe the issue a little bit, I think.

Monsieur Perron, then Mr. Stoffer.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I may have been asleep at the switch, as we say, but so far the people who have testified before the committee have mostly talked about their associations, and so forth. When we ask them questions about the veterans' ombudsman, their comments become vague. I am alluding here to the representatives of the Canadian Legion.

In the future, when we invite witnesses to discuss the ombudsman, we should tell them that they only have one minute to make their presentation and nine minutes to explain the reasons why they are for or against having an ombudsman, and tell us about the main duties they would like to see entrusted to that ombudsman.

When you send the witnesses an invitation, I think it is incumbent upon the clerk and you, Mr. Chairman, to define the rules of the game clearly and to mention to the witnesses that we will be asking as many questions as possible on their vision concerning the ombudsman and that we will be asking them whether they think there should be one, or not. Those who are not in favour of having an ombudsman must also be given the possibility of explaining why.

Until now, none of the witnesses who have appeared before the committee have really given us any concrete arguments for or against the appointment of an ombudsman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I just found out that Mr. Frost is going to be available on October 16, so just a heads-up for people in terms of his appearance possibility.

To Monsieur Perron, I agree with you. I think I will say in English what you have said in French, in the sense that we want to make clear to the people we invite as witnesses before the committee that we'd like to have them germane to the subject at hand, which is that of the ombudsman, as that most benefits us in terms of recommendations to the minister, etc.

Mr. Stoffer, and Mrs. Hinton on deck.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Talking about writing letters, as you're aware, Jack Stagg, the Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs, passed away over the summer, and I thought it would be appropriate for us to write a letter to his wife, offering our condolences to her.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I don't have an issue with that. We'll pursue that, Mr. Stoffer.

Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I never like to disagree with anything my friend across the way says, but we did actually have opinions--fairly strong opinions--from two different groups that appeared in front of us. The Legion eventually said they were in support of having an ombudsman, and the independent group of veterans who appeared in front of us made no bones about how strongly they felt about having an ombudsman. So we did actually get some direct answers, but we need more. We need more input, which is what our intention is all about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I really do not want to start a debate with Betty. However, I do not want the people who appear before the committee to simply tell us that they want an ombudsman. I would like them to tell us what they feel his or her role should be.

But they are not committing themselves, they are not saying anything at all. They are not referring to the powers he should be given. I would like them to suggest the powers the ombudsman should have, the role that he should play, etc., which would give us some insight into the type of ombudsman they want. But no one has drawn up that type of profile for us so far. People say they want one, and that is all.

That is my concern. Before our witnesses appear, we must make them understand that they have to give us some idea of the type of ombudsman they would like to have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Not seeing anybody else who wishes to speak to the issue, I think we have a sense that we will try to keep these people focused and tethered onto the issue of the ombudsman. I understand that and I hope everybody working on behalf of the committee with regard to recruiting our witnesses understands that as well.

Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Chairman, the only comment I have is that I think that's really why they're coming to us. We're looking for some options, but I think it really does put forward the point of why we need to make some decisions to go out and look at what is the best scenario for an ombudsman for Canada.

I think we've gone down that road and we need to continue that to get to a finalization. We need to talk to those people who have ombudsmen in areas that we would want to be investigating in order to come up with a way to do it right the first time.