Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 4th, 2006

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Another comment that was made was that 54% of investigative approaches are finalized in one month, and 81% within three months. This is a general goal for the department. Is it the same in every department? Would the defence department have that same goal? Would that be fair to say?

[Roger Winzenberg]

All Australian government agencies have a sort of management performance framework that's mandated across the government, so all government agencies usually have a service charter and a performance standard that is normally publicly available to the clients of those agencies.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

The reason I asked that—

[Roger Winzenberg]

And in their annual report, that's one of the things they have to report against, how they managed their performance.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

The reason I asked that is that as we set this up, we want to make sure it has enough resources. Suppose your department or the department of the ombudsman could not meet that goal. Would they be given more resources, or do they have to simply do what they...? We're worried about setting something up that doesn't have the resources to provide the service, such as is being provided by your office or the office in Australia.

[Roger Winzenberg]

In that scenario, that would be up to the ombudsman to approach the government of the day and make the case. It would be up to the government of the day as to whether they increased the resources.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

So generally it's felt that they do have the resources then, because the job is getting done.

[Roger Winzenberg]

I couldn't comment on that.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Okay.

Do you also have an Auditor General in Australia?

[Roger Winzenberg]

That's correct.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Is there some overlap between the two? Some of the comments you make seem to be in some of the areas the Auditor General of Canada delves into. I'm wondering if there is any overlap between the areas of reporting.

You don't have to answer that. I guess I'm curious, is all.

[Roger Winzenberg]

Not that I'm aware of. They have similar statutory functions, but one of the things the Auditor General concentrates on is the compliance with the financial management arrangements and making sure that the agencies' financial statements are correct and that sort of thing. So it's sort of a different focus.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Now on to Mr. Gaudet with the Bloc for five minutes.

I'd like to add that we've had some complaints from committee members about side conversations, so can you keep it down so that committee members don't have to strain with ear pieces?

Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good day, Mr. Winzenberg.

In your report, as well as in your presentation, you stated that the ombudsman does not have the authority to compel an agency to implement his recommendations. What do you mean by that? Are you saying that there is no mandatory requirement to implement the ombudsman's recommendations stemming from an investigation? Could you explain this to me?

[Roger Winzenberg]

Yes, that's correct. The western democratic model for an ombudsman is a person who suggests remedies and solutions, not somebody with a power to make or overturn decisions. But the office, nevertheless, is seen as pretty powerful; and as I said earlier, it's a brave government agency that doesn't implement an ombudsman's recommendations. Normally, the only time they wouldn't do that is if there were legal or legislative issues. But the Australian experience is that most of the recommendations from the federal ombudsman are taken up pretty quickly by government agencies.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You've been here for the past 18 months. Would you recommend that we adopt the same kind of system that you spoke of, or should we opt for one with more independence?

[Roger Winzenberg]

I've actually been here since July, so nearly six months. I have another 12 months to go.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I apologize.

[Roger Winzenberg]

It's not for me to advise you how you should proceed.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

It's not easy biting the hand that feeds you. To my way of thinking, it would be better for the House of Commons and the Speaker of the House to hire the ombudsman. That way, he would be report to the House of Commons, not to any one minister or to the prime minister. In my view, the process should be more independent, and hence, more professional. I'm not saying that the ombudsman wouldn't do a good job, but occasionally, when a minister or the government does not agree with a recommendation, it goes through anyway. That's my point of view.

I'd like to hear your comments.

[Roger Winzenberg]

From my point of view, I think the important thing, in terms of an ombudsman, is whether he or she is effective. And normally you gauge effectiveness by the number of recommendations that are accepted and implemented.

I think it's less of an issue in terms of how the office is structured, whether it's legislated or not. As an example, we saw the report by Mr. Côté, of recent times, that was accepted across government without any argument. The minister, I think, directed the department to implement their recommendations immediately. So there's an example of an effective formulation of an ombudsman who is not legislated and reports to a minister.

Any ombudsman you would talk to in the world and I think all the ombudsmen you've had before your committee would all say in the ideal world that they would prefer to be legislated and have whatever resources they need to do the job as an ideal aspiration. From my point of view, it's less important how they're structured; what's more important is how effective they are.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Have any of Australia's ombudsmen been relieved of their duties since 1976?

[Roger Winzenberg]

Not that I'm aware of. I'd say no.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.