Evidence of meeting #20 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Oh no, there is as much discussion on this as you want to have. I'm just trying to help him out, that's all.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
I appreciate that the chair is trying to be helpful and get us talking in order to give some guidance to Michel.
When I look at this list, let's assume for the moment that it's exhaustive. There may be some other things, but I think Michel's draft here is a good working document. When you look at all of this, we're probably going to arm-wrestle only over the second area, which is accountability, and the second last one, which is contact with the Minister of Veterans Affairs. We're going to really have to work on those, I think.
On the first appointment of the veterans ombudsman, I personally agree with you on number two.
Let me skip accountability.
Concerning term of office, I think you said number one. Did you? Yes. Personally, I have no problem with that.
On mandate, did you say number two? You said number one. Well, okay. To me it's certainly not three, and Mr. Marin, the former DND ombudsman, certainly felt that the veterans ombudsman should have some ability, not to interfere with cases, but to be able to look at systemic issues within the review process. To me, one and two are simply nuances. There's not much of a difference between them.
On review of mandate, I think you said number two. Was it three? Well, there is no problem there.
Regarding access to documents, I think I agree with you on number one.
As for contact with the minister, that's one on which we'll have to maybe arm-wrestle a bit.
As for end costs, he or she has to have a budget. I don't think it really matters; I agree with Peter that the independence has to be there.
I would be concerned with the accountability one--the second one--and the second last one, the contact with the minister. My only concern is that we set this up so that the veterans get the service they need. If it speeds things up for the ombudsman to have some kind of well-understood, proper relationship with the minister's office--transparent, if that's a better word--for the purpose of serving the veterans, then I think we need to look at that anyway.
I appreciate what you're doing, Mr. Chair. I think we need to begin this process and then winnow down to the areas in which we have to do some arm wrestling, and get over the easy stuff.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
If I may, just before we move on, let's talk about the arm wrestling on accountability in number two. Do you like the idea that they are able to present, at least yearly, to the standing committee, the accountability aspect?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
I have no problem with number two. I guess I'm not sure exactly what number three means.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
I don't like number three. I don't think anybody has suggested number three anyway, unless somebody wants to.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
I wasn't sure if it was the accountability section or the contact with the minister section. I just felt that if the ombudsman came across something that needed some attention right away, and that if he or she needed the authority or power of the minister's office to get the job done right away, this person shouldn't be restricted from going to the minister to say, hey, we have a problem here. That's all I was concerned with. If number two doesn't prevent that, because personally contact with minister, I think.... Again, as long as it's transparent and the rules are well understood, I don't see a problem with number three, but this is what the arm wrestling is about. I need to know more about what that means.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Maybe we are moving ahead on it. I think the issues list needs to be developed with some background on it based on what we've heard and all of ours, so we aren't just cherry-picking some issues here. I think the researchers can provide us with some of those options to look at, maybe in a little more comprehensive a way than what we have right here, and list the issues.
The other one I'm not sure about is who determines the location. When I say “issues list”, I think we need to be pretty comprehensive about those things we go through, to make sure we've hit all of them, that take us to the implementation process, to that gate. Then I'm not sure what happens at that gate.
Maybe somebody can help me. Once we go through this and present our report, do we have a say in the implementation at all in terms of the number of people? I think then we turn it over to the administration and say, we think now you need to come to us with a report on the implementation process of it. I'm not so sure why they can't dovetail, so that we are not doing one and then waiting to do the other.
I really think that if we wanted to actually move ahead as a committee, we could follow through with the researchers on this early part of it, from the issues and options list that we can go down, and then at the same time we can have the ministry prepare how they see the implementation. They give us a document based on how they see the implementation and costing. They're the ones who are going to give us the budget, as mentioned by Brent.
Do they have recommendations of where, too? I don't think we should just be cherry-picking on personal venues of where it should go. I think we should have some background from veterans and actual research that tells us where it should go. Some of those things need to come in terms of that implementation.
I don't know. I'd ask, Mr. Chairman, for the committee's comments on that.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
I think that's a fair point. One of the things that jump to my mind is that we prepare a report based on what we would like to see, and then we can have the departmental officials or the minister in to respond to it, to say here's where they'd like to nip and tuck it.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
Yes, we never have to worry; they'll do that.
That's the feedback I have on that.
It's now over to Mr. Stoffer.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Again, and I'm sorry, I should have asked this the first time. On the mandate, I believe it's number two. What I'd like to see are the words, “veterans and their families”. I'm looking at, for example, when a veteran passes on, his widow is left behind, receiving VIP services for whatever reason—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
The widow believes that for whatever reason she's not getting the services that she anticipates. She goes to an ombudsman.
I stress the fact that the ombudsman should also be there for the families, not just the veteran but the spouse and so on. Also, Mr. Chairman, I say that as well because some veterans suffer pretty badly from PTSD. The last thing they can do is try to deal with the bureaucracy, either political or whatever, regarding...it takes this long to do this and that. They may not be able to cope with that because they're dealing with their own mental injury. They may get someone to speak on their behalf, usually a spouse or an older child. I think that person should have an opportunity to speak to an ombudsman on their behalf if the veteran is unable to deal with it themselves.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
I'm glad you clarified that, sir. I thought you were getting into having legal representation and lawyers.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
No, nothing like that. That's a different story altogether.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Betty Hinton Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
That's okay, not a problem.
I listened very carefully to the comments that have been made, and I think I'm probably closest to being on the same page with Roger and Bev. One of the things I find interesting, being the only woman on this committee, is that sometimes women think a little differently from men. I have an opinion, obviously. What woman doesn't have an opinion? In terms of what we're looking at here for options, I don't think my opinion really matters that much. I think the opinion that matters is the opinion of the veterans groups and the individuals we've had here as witnesses. We're supposed to be taking a look at the consensus that the opinions from those witnesses outlined.
My opinion, which I have obviously, doesn't really matter. But I want to be able to take the information that's in front of us on this sheet and I want to be able to answer this based on what the majority of the witnesses who came in front of us feel and not what I feel, never having been a veteran. When I'm talking about agreeing with Mr. Valley, that's what I'm referring to.
I'll take a step back. I have a seven-year-old car. My husband is getting ready to buy a new one and he drives me crazy. Every time I turn around he's giving me statistics. What he's ended up doing is putting a spreadsheet together, and exactly as I mentioned earlier, there are Xs in all the boxes on the features that he wants. What I'd like to see, with what we have in front of us as information, is a spreadsheet that says this group and that group all agreed they want this; this and that group all agreed they didn't want this. Then we have a spreadsheet that has all of the questions in front of us answered from all of the witnesses who have come forward.
It isn't about what I think, or what Mr. Valley thinks, or Mr. Perron thinks; it's about what these groups of witnesses who are involved in the organizations we're supposed to be serving think.
I know Christmas is coming, but I'm asking Michel to put together some kind of spreadsheet, like the car thing, that has Xs in the boxes, so that I can read it at a glance and know what the features are that veterans wanted the most.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
I think some other people have indicated they'd like to see it as well. The only thing I pity our analysts for is that I think with some of the—
