Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2006

[Keith Hillier]

Yes, I believe so.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

The question must have been asked whether you supported the ombudsman office at that time. I'm not clear, because it's not in my notes, and I don't know. Did you support the idea then? We have had the question of some hesitation.

[Keith Hillier]

From my standpoint, I don't recall whether the question was asked. I'd defer to the transcript. If it had been asked to me, I would have said yes. I think I would respond by saying that if I didn't believe in this, I wouldn't have taken this assignment.

Specifically the reason this assignment was given to me as the corporate ADM is due to the fact that I have very little involvement with veterans programs. I'm not responsible for the policies, the programs, the service delivery of any of the programs. And certainly I have, in my view, a greater degree of independence because of the fact that I'm not accountable for the actual delivery of services to veterans.

However, I am part of the overall management team, undoubtedly. Certainly I would not have taken this assignment.... If I may say so, Mr. Chair, I'll have been with the government for 35 years in January coming and have worked in a variety of departments in a variety of cities. Any assignment I've taken in the past and will take in the future will be for things I believe in and things in which I think I can make a difference.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you for that.

You've stated some of this, but I want to tie it together. We know that the forces have an ombudsman. We know that when that person was appointed they helped write the rules...I don't know whether it's the rules, but how they were going to form the office and what services they were going to provide.

First, should the ombudsman be separate from Veterans Affairs? Should it be joint with the forces? And secondly, should the same opportunity be given to an ombudsman set-up for Veterans Affairs: that he have the chance—I know they'll be setting up their own office—to write up their own rules, or whatever word I should use, to make sure the service is delivered to the veterans?

[Keith Hillier]

That will be a Government of Canada decision. My role in this is really to provide advice to the minister and to provide research. At the end of the day, it is the government that will have to make a decision about whether there's one for DND and VAC combined, or whether there's one for all of government, or a special one for VAC.

That's a Government of Canada decision. My role is to give the best advice, to give the best research through that advice, but at the end of the day it's a Government of Canada decision.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

You've mentioned a number of different models. You've seen a number of different service deliveries by ombudsmen in different countries. Is there no one in particular of which you would say, “This is the one we should be looking at”?

[Keith Hillier]

My sense is that as with many things in life there are pros and cons. There are upsides and downsides.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

In a homegrown system, yes.

[Keith Hillier]

I think what we want is something that works for Canadian veterans, because at the end of the day, this is about improving service for veterans. This is about making the situation better for those who served.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Rota will put a question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Sure. He can finish off.

You have a minute and a half.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Okay. I'll make it brief, then.

Mr. Hillier, you had some consultations. I was just reading your letter, and you had quite a number of consultations with different associations. Are the notes and the minutes to those meetings something we have access to? Would you mind sharing them with our committee?

[Keith Hillier]

Certainly I will provide anything that legally I can provide to you, based on the Access to Information Act and Privacy Act. I'd be happy to.

Mr. Chair, I can take that matter under advisement and provide the clerk of the committee, if I may, with any information for dissemination.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

That would be ideal, because you've seen people from one group; we've seen people from another. If we could put it together, it would probably help us quite a bit.

When you met, you met mainly with groups and not individuals, I take it.

[Keith Hillier]

That's correct. There were one or two individuals who were met with in the initial discussions that took place last spring.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Did you meet with...? I guess it was one or two individuals; you didn't meet with families. Or did you meet with front-line workers within your organization who have prime contact, and maybe get some input from them?

[Keith Hillier]

I can respond to that in a couple of ways. In terms of the fact that we have had discussions internally about this, we've discussed this matter through our management committees and what have you. As a lead-up to the Veterans Charter, I had the opportunity to visit about 22 of our field offices across the country, doing basically town hall types of discussions with the staff and talking about how we are doing with regard to providing services to veterans. While there was no formal discussion—no formal consultation, if I can call it that—certainly some of these things were, should I say, tested and what have you. From my perspective, then, there is a knowledge there that there will be an ombudsman coming forward. The basic question has been how it's going to work. In fact, that hasn't been sorted out, and it won't be until such time as the decision has been made as to what the ombudsman is.

Interestingly enough, when you talk with veterans organizations—and they've all appeared here—I think they will tell you that they all support the concept of a bill of rights and an ombudsman. Each veterans organization has a different view as to exactly how that might work and what the authorities may be. Until such time as a decision is made by the Government of Canada on what the model is, a lot of the questions are somewhat hypothetical, including how long it will take. Depending on what its mandate is, you may need an office of ten people or you may need an office of fifty people. Gearing up for fifty would obviously take somewhat longer than for ten. It would be a significant challenge for the ombudsperson to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Rota.

We're moving on to Monsieur Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Hillier, would you happen to know what Mr. Yves Côté's occupation was before he was appointed as the national defence department and Canadian forces ombudsman?

[Keith Hillier]

No, I don't know specifically. I don't know this for a fact, but my understanding is that Mr. Côté is a lawyer.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.

You travelled throughout this country and met with more than 22 associations. You are an advisor to the government and to the minister. You are a deputy minister.

Are you supposed to find an ombudsman or just to talk with people?

[Keith Hillier]

Let me define what my role is in the organization. First of all, my primary role is that of assistant deputy minister for corporate services. I am responsible for the computer systems, computer infrastructure, human resources, property management, security, buildings, and what I would say are most of the non-program areas. I was asked by my deputy minister, the late Jack Stagg, to take on this file, which is the creation of the bill of rights and the ombudsman.

In order for the Government of Canada to make decisions as to where this is going to land at the end of the day in terms of the model and in terms of the bill of rights, I was asked to consult veterans organizations to receive their input, their thoughts, and their ideas. Those things will be fed back into the system in order to allow the Government of Canada to make the applicable decisions that it will make.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I can understand your point of view, but still, you are working for the Canadian government. We are trying to push this through as quickly as possible. But it is far from moving ahead fast at this time. At this rate, it will take five years to do settle this issue.

Is there a real will to create this ombudsman position? We also have endless meetings, sometimes, but to no avail.

I want to get something concrete. I agree with you, and I agree that Mr. Stagg gave you a mandate to deal with this issue, but we need to have a goal and we need to see that this mandate will end someday. Otherwise, this will never be finished.

[Keith Hillier]

My response to that, Mr. Chair, is the fact that consultations have been ongoing, last week and this week, with veterans organizations. The information that we've gathered will be fed back through to the minister.

I have to emphasize that at the end of the day this will be a decision by the Government of Canada, through the parliamentary process, in terms of the timing, in terms of the mandate, and in terms of the decisions around what the ombudsman model will look like.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

There's still a minute and a half left, if Monsieur Perron wishes to—