Evidence of meeting #28 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was soldiers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pascale Brillon  Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

We are, I think for the first time since I've been chair of this committee, in the room that SCONDVA, a joint national defence and veterans affairs committee, used to be in with all the war art and everything else. It's nice to be here.

I would like to thank our witness, Madame Pascale Brillon.

We would like to give you a chance to start off our discussions with regard to the health examination of veterans, particularly post-traumatic stress disorder. Usually the way this works is that we give either 10 or 20 minutes. You're certainly entitled to take 20 minutes if you wish, for your presentation. After that, we open it up to questions from the committee members.

We are now in your hands with regard to the presentation.

9:15 a.m.

Dr. Pascale Brillon Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Thank you.

I want to start by introducing myself. I have a Ph.D. in psychology with a specialty in post-traumatic stress from the University of Montreal. This was the first study on post-traumatic stress experienced by women who had been raped. I was then hired by the Hôpital du Sacré-Coeur de Montréal to train psychologists and psychiatrists in post-traumatic stress. I specialize in the study of post-traumatic stress in terms of both research and intervention. Accordingly, I provide a great deal of training in post-traumatic intervention.

It is important to understand that, in Canada, we are just beginning research on post-traumatic stress, whereas the United States had to deal with the Vietnam war, which led to the return of thousands of very traumatized veterans. Consequently, Americans are very aware of this scourge, this syndrome. It has taken Canada longer to recognize post-traumatic stress disorder and for people to specialize in this field.

I work at the Hôpital du Sacré-Coeur de Montréal, where I see only victims. I provide training at the Valcartier military base to psychologists and psychiatrists treating soldiers and veterans returning from missions. I also continue to provide supervision at the Valcartier base.

Consequently, Mr. Perron invited me here today so that we can talk together about post-traumatic stress disorder. I will start by giving you a general overview of PTSD, because people are talking about it more and more, but we don't really know much about it.

First, we need to understand that victims of a traumatic event experience a series of symptoms. Atraumatic event is a life-threatening event or one that causes feelings of fear, helplessness or horror. The event causes not only fear but also feelings of horror and helplessness.

Our soldiers often experience such emotions. They will tell me, for example, that they did not fear for their lives, but that they were unable to bear the sight of dead bodies or of a 14-year-old child killing a pregnant woman. So, our soldiers often experience feelings of helplessness or horror.

Individuals experience a traumatic event, and then they will experience various symptoms if they are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. There are three kinds of symptoms. The first kind is avoidance. For most people, this is the worst experience of their lives. They will then seek to avoid everything related to that event. For our military personnel, this often means that they no longer want to bear arms, or wear their uniform, that they are no longer able to stand the sight of a military base, and that they have trouble looking at the flag because it is closely associated with this horrible experience. Thus, they are prone to avoiding situations associated with the traumatic event.

To a large extent, it's also about avoiding various thoughts. They no longer want to think about it, don't want to remember it ever again or talk about it. The biggest hurdle for psychotherapy is that most people don't want to talk about what they've experienced. So avoidance is the first kind of symptom.

The second kind of symptom is flashbacks, meaning people re-experience the event, when they don't necessarily want to, and in fact are trying not to. People may have flashbacks, nightmares or intrusive thoughts. Even if they don't want to, they are overwhelmed on a daily basis by these intrusive thoughts. The memories of the traumatic event come back.

In relation to everyday life, this symptom can take the following form: people tell me that, when they are talking, all of a sudden they recall a woman's crushed face; while they are watching TV, they hear the word “rape” and they recall their experience in Rwanda; they are walking down the street and they see a child, and they remember a child crucified on a barn door in Bosnia. So they are immersed in these images, which reoccur over several months when they are associated with post-traumatic stress disorder. So this is the second kind of symptom, what is called flashbacks.

The third kind of symptom is hypervigilance, meaning that the body is always on guard. The individual almost died, he was in an extraordinary situation, and then the veteran or victim remains in a state of over-stimulation.

In this room, for example, it would be very difficult for a victim not to be in a constant state of arousal, because there are windows, people everywhere, around us, behind us.

Someone who experienced bombings in Bosnia, the events of the World Trade Center, the horrors of Rwanda, will be extremely vigilant as to who is behind them, who can come in through this door, what is happening with regard to the windows. These individuals are constantly alert. This means, then, that they may be unable to concentrate because their mind is focusing mainly on what is happening around them. This means that they will find it very difficult to sleep because sleeping means letting go, giving up control, and that means they are vulnerable. Such people can also be extremely irritable because if they are constantly in this state of arousal, their stress level is at 9 on a scale of 1 to 10, and the slightest thing can set them off.

So, their spouses find it extremely difficult to live with these people on a daily basis, because they are in a constant state of arousal and irritability.

This syndrome manifests itself in the weeks and months following a traumatic event. Typically, it can be diagnosed when symptoms have lasted at least a month.

Clearly, some symptoms resulting from a traumatic event are not as long-term. For example, people experience symptoms such as shock during an emergency. They tell themselves that they can't believe what is happening. People may experience disassociation. Victims tell me that while the event was occurring, they heard their commander tell them to do this, do that, and they obeyed like a robot but that they were disconnected. They managed to do their job but without feeling anything. They were truly disconnected.

In the days following the event people often feel very alone. Victims feel as if they are the only ones to feel that way. They believe this is unacceptable, particularly for soldiers; they say that it is shameful to experience such symptoms. This is still the case today. If someone is afraid, if they have nightmares, flashbacks, they absolutely cannot talk about it, because this would be a sign of weakness, this is not worthy of someone in the Canadian armed forces. These are emotions that appear in the days following the event, and if they continue, we see the appearance of post-traumatic stress disorder.

When we talk about PTSD, we're talking about a disorder that occurs but that we previously believed to be rare. Currently, it is estimated... We are starting to accumulate data that indicate that it is not so rare and that horrible events can cause PTSD.

Different studies have been done. What can lead to PTSD? What factors may make this disorder worse? We note that this is the case when particularly horrible events, intrusive events, occur, therefore events that affect the victim. Not only did the individual see his colleague get shot, just beside him, but the victim's blood splattered on him. They saw grey matter on the ground. These are intrusive, unpredictable and violent events.

People will often talk about events involving children; such events increase one's chances of experiencing post-traumatic stress disorder. People will tell me, for example, about being sent to Rwanda and not being able to bear the fact that children were carrying weapons. They think that war is civilized only when it takes place between two trained male adults. They tell me that after they got there and saw children killing others, this seemed barbaric. And so, many people find this absurdity to be unbearable, even in the context of war. This can also be a risk factor for post-traumatic stress disorder.

Sexual events are also a significant risk factor in post-traumatic stress disorder. They are often associated with more symptoms because they are very intrusive and traumatic.

Obviously, there are also events that cause physical injury. If an individual witnesses or is injured during a traumatic event, he or she may be more likely to develop PTSD than if they had not been injured.

We also note—and I will conclude on this point—some differences based on the victim's gender. For example, we know that men and women do not experience the same kind of traumatic event. Women are nine times more likely to experience a sexual trauma than men. We also know that men and women react very differently to a traumatic event. We know that women are more likely to consult a professional following a traumatic event. They are more likely to seek help, which may improve their prognosis, whereas, particularly within the Canadian Forces, men are much more likely to feel ashamed and stigmatized.

Men are more likely to try to hide it, and to drink. Some studies indicate a very telling comorbidity between PTSD and alcohol abuse. Fifty per cent of traumatized men will be diagnosed as having a drinking problem. This doesn't mean just drinking a beer now and again, it's truly a diagnosis of alcohol abuse and dependency. This is cause for concern because, if you drink four bottles of gin at night, obviously you will no longer feel anxious. In the short term, this strategy works. The problem is that, in the long term, alcohol abuse will reinforce PTSD and really make the symptoms chronic. This is one thing we need to be very aware of. Untreated PTSD can really get worse with time. It remains chronic, and often, a diagnosis of comorbidity will follow, particularly for men, as a result of their alcohol abuse.

Another comorbid factor that may be cause for concern is realizing that untreated PTSD if often associated with a major depression. The following are symptoms of depression: sadness, difficulty sleeping, constant crying, loss of interest and suicidal thoughts. This is not insignificant, it's truly quite important and is very strongly associated with PTSD. According to the studies, 52% of women and 52% of men with PTSD will also be diagnosed with major depression if the PTSD remains untreated. Society tends to think that, generally, time will heal all wounds and that gradually the symptoms will diminish. This is not what the scientific studies are telling us. What we are seeing is that if nothing is done, several diagnoses may be made, as the victims will try to treat this anxiety the only way they know how, by, for example, drinking alcohol, or else they will develop symptoms of a major depression.

I want to take a few minutes to conclude my presentation, and then we can talk about it together.

Obviously, over the years we have developed a better understanding of PTSD, and of its aggravating factors, but also of what can be done to mitigate its effects. More specifically, there are therapeutic strategies and psychological strategies. There are three levels of intervention. The first level of intervention is the least well-known and that is prior to the trauma.

What can we do to help people who are known to be at risk—military personnel, but also police officers, EMTs, international cooperants—knowing that they may experience trauma, to help them increase their resiliency, their capacity to understand themselves, in order to decrease the prevalence of PTSD? This is the first level of intervention. We can talk more about it later. This is the least well-known and the least well developed.

The second level of intervention is immediately following the trauma, in the hours and days that follow. We know that someone has been traumatized; what can we do right away? You have already heard about post-traumatic debriefings; this is the second level of intervention. How can we help them in the short term? The purpose of this immediate intervention is to try to prevent the appearance of PTSD, to take steps to ensure that the PTSD is not as severe.

The third level of intervention occurs in the longer term, meaning after one month, once a diagnosis of PTSD has been made, and the symptoms, that is, avoidance, hypervigilance, flashbacks, have continued for one month, two months or three months. What can we do to help these victims?

To help these people recover, we need to ensure a level of intervention with longer-term therapeutic strategies.

There you have it.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

It's a very interesting presentation, and I appreciate that. I have questions off the top of my head, but I will defer to my committee colleagues.

Mr. Valley, for seven minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

Thank you very much for the presentation and thank you for enlightening us on many of these issues.

You mentioned at the start that the Americans are much better at some of this, probably because they've had a lot more experience. How long is their experience? Have they been doing this--recognizing PTSD--since the Second World War?

9:30 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

People have likely been suffering from PTSD since the dawn of time. Unfortunately, traumas are nothing new. However, the first scientific studies date back to the end of the 1800s, when the railroad came into existence. There were accidents, and strange symptoms were noted in the victims, such as their refusal to get back on the train, or having flashbacks of the accident.

The first hypothesis was that bits of metal had penetrated the brain and caused these symptoms. Nothing changed until the first two world wars. For the first time, new disorders appeared: shell shock, concentration camp syndrome and combat fatigue.

During that period, it was noted that military personnel experienced the same symptoms as those found in train accident victims: they refused to return to combat, they had flashbacks and nightmares about the experience. At that time, there was a very effective treatment for soldiers suffering from PTSD. They were considered cowards and deserters, and they were shot. Obviously you will agree with me in saying that this got rid of the PTSD once and for all. But it also got rid of the soldiers.

I say that with a smile on my face, but it's to show you just how far we've come with regard to this syndrome. It has long been seen as a sign of weakness among military personnel. They were thought not to be doing their duty towards their homeland, and to be deserters. They were punished for committing war crimes. In North America, it took the Vietnam war to bring about a change in attitude with regard to PTSD.

The Americans, who saw traumatized veterans returning home by the thousands, were unable to consider these individuals as cowards and deserters. In fact, many of them had been decorated, some of them had acted heroically in combat and others had graduated from the best known elite military schools. West Point is one such example. It was a shock for Americans. They wondered how such soldiers, who had graduated from the best schools and acted so heroically, could be suffering from such incapacitating symptoms.

It was also during the 1970s that scientific articles on rape trauma syndrome, as it's known, were published for the first time. Burgess and Holmstrom dealt with this in 1979. At that time, the very powerful American women's movement noticed surprisingly similar symptoms among completely different types of victims. Women who had been raped were afraid of sexual relationships, of men, had nightmares about the sexual attack and were in a constant state of alert. The American peace and women's movements were first and foremost in the fight to have the Senate recognize PTSD in 1980.

Since then, universities and some American veterans' hospitals have focused on what they call post-traumatic stress disorder. They are far ahead of us. When I did my Ph.D.—and it wasn't in 1920 but in 1993—it was the second Ph.D. in Quebec on PTSD. In 1997, when I began to provide training at the Sainte-Anne Hospital, a veterans' hospital in Montreal, it was the first time that the participants had received specific training on this subject. There was pressure in Quebec to make more psychologists available.

Currently, the troops are still not accompanied by Quebec or Canadian psychologists. For many years, our soldiers had to consult American psychologists. We consider this a start. We were lucky not to have experienced the Vietnam war. General Dallaire played an important role with regard to PTSD in the Canadian armed forces. He was one of the first to name this disorder. He dared to say that he had it. Yet, he was a general. His confession destroyed many taboos and helped to get this disorder recognized.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

Thank you. I'm glad we, as Canadians, no longer subscribe to that treatment of shooting them. That wouldn't be very appropriate.

First of all, I have two questions. One, how do we adjust, and how do we add, when the dimensions of war change? Suicide bombers are fairly new, especially riding on bicycles and everything else. Now we have to fear bicycles. How do you, as a professional, adjust for that?

Secondly, you mentioned the different timelines for interventions--at risk, immediately after, and long-term.

9:35 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

Before the traumatic event, therefore, before they even leave for war, immediately afterwards, and then in the longer term.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

I'm interested in the one, “immediately after”. What does the first 24 hours look like--the first 24 hours, the first week, and a month, in a snapshot?

So those are my two questions: how do we change with the dynamics of war; and how do we deal with the 24 hours, to the one week, to the month?

9:35 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

Your first question is an excellent one. We have noted that our soldiers, like our police officers, are people who often want to help, and who have a particular vision of war. When they arrive in theatre and they see that their vision of war is nothing at all like what is really happening, that is a significant factor. Some soldiers tell us that they cannot understand how human beings can do that to others, that they have difficulty seeing children being killed and killing others. This should be part of the first intervention, meaning preparing soldiers prior to their departure.

Many soldiers have also told us that if they had known, before they left, what a dead body smelled like and known the barbaric acts being committed in theatre, things might have been easier for them. Our challenge will be to determine how to properly prepare them before they leave, and then, to test our therapeutic interventions. It's all well and good to put interventions in place, but we also have to ensure that they are effective.

Our problem is that many soldiers want to defend their homeland. This is their ideal. We have to remember that they have very strong personality traits. However, it is considered a sign of weakness to talk about managing stress prior to a trauma, and to talk about PTSD.

During the training I gave at Valcartier, clinicians told me they wanted more in-depth training, but they also pointed out that, when soldiers consulted them, they had to climb the stairway of shame. The entire base uses this expression to talk about having to go to the mental health centre.

I would invite your committee to ask Dr. Christiane Routhier, a specialist at Valcartier in the pre-departure program, to appear. This is all she does. She prepares military personnel before their departure, from a mental health standpoint. If you want more information on her preparatory work and its effectiveness, I would encourage you to invite her here.

Would you be kind enough to repeat your second question, please?

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

His time is up, Madam. Each MP has seven minutes to talk with you, Dr. Brillon, so we have to be quick.

Would you be able to tell, using tests, whether my colleague Jean-Yves or I are more at risk for suffering from PTSD today?

9:35 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

That is extremely difficult to determine. Research is just beginning. We are trying to identify the risk factors for PTSD. We have several leads, but it is difficult because such research requires a huge population pool, not all members of whom will necessarily experience trauma. We have to assess the impact of the trauma immediately and then later. Logistically, this is extremely difficult. With the Canadian Forces, we have a good pool allowing us to conduct excellent research, but such research is very expensive. Currently we are lacking funding.

We know little about what may predispose someone to PTSD. We know that the more violent, serious, intrusive, unpredictable, and opposed to the values of the victim the event is, the greater the risk that he or she will have PTSD. We know that if the victim already suffers from stress or depression, the fewer adaptive resources they will have at the time of the traumatic event, but that is difficult to test.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Dr. Brillon, do you know whether the army subjects future soldiers to psychological testing when they enlist?

9:40 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

I don't know enough about the process to know what tests soldiers are given at present.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Now I come to my second question. Let's put our cards on the table. I know there are soldiers suffering from PTSD or post-traumatic stress disorder, but I am especially interested in future soldiers. Can we protect them, even if we send them into crisis situations, so that they will not come back with PTSD? This would save the government a significant amount of money, because treating someone with PTSD costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Other related questions keep occurring to me. Should we have more psychologists on the battle fields? Should we follow military personnel more during training? In addition to physical training, can we give them mental training? Can we tell the Canadian armed forces to do something to save my children, my sons?

9:40 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

I totally agree with you. Ideally, there are a number of things that will be done. The key is to work out how we can better prepare them for what is in store, better prepare them to manage stress and to recognize the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. You have to make sure they know that if they come home and are tempted by alcohol, it could be dangerous. They need to be aware of what the symptoms of depression are, and how to do a better job of recognizing them, in order to prevent the onset of depression. That's a challenge. How do you develop a program which will be as effective as possible in protecting these men who go abroad?

You have to bear in mind they will see horrific things. Some things would be traumatizing to anybody. When you discover a child crucified on a barn door, even if you've been trained, you will be affected. Given what awaits them over there, it is important to put into perspective what can be achieved from a preventative standpoint.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Ms. Brillon, I have been so close to my young veterans—that I affectionately call my "mixed-up kids"—and I could tell you stories about them that would make you cry for days. They make me cry at my age and I'm 66. I know what goes on.

In closing, I think it's important to get a little bit political about this; something I do rarely at this committee. You said something that really gets my goat: that there's not enough money. Could we buy one less aircraft from a big company and invest more in mental health services, just a little more on a pro rata basis on services which focus on the grey matter? This isn't mean-spirited politics, it's politics based on reality.

9:40 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

If you're asking me if more should be invested in mental health for our military personnel, well, as a psychologist, I agree entirely with you. But it's up to our leaders, it's up to you to make this financial decision. Do they need this from a psychological standpoint? Obviously they do.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

If you had to put a dollar figure on that, what would it be, roughly? You don't want to say. Do you have an idea?

9:45 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

All I know is that a lot more could be done.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Could you give me an order of magnitude? What should the ratio be between veterans and psychologists?

9:45 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

I can't even answer that question. All I can say is that we are trying to work out how we can do a better job of training them. They're going to have to be better trained, there will need to be more of them, and they need to be made available more quickly. It's very interesting to see what's going on currently with the psychologists in Cyprus. For example, after their service in Afghanistan, military personnel spend a week in Cyprus where psychologists are made available. As I said earlier about the second level, many services we're able to provide currently are provided after the fact. We still aren't able to be out in the field but, at least, we're in Cyprus after their military service before they come back to Canada. We could do a lot more. We also don't have enough money to assess the effectiveness of our therapeutic approach. If you invite Dr. Routhier, she'll be able to tell you about the effectiveness of services and what she is currently developing. That would be really interesting. But clearly we should be making an attempt to do a better job at doing more for our soldiers from a psychological standpoint.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Chairman, after the meeting, perhaps it would be a good idea to go around the table and see if everybody's interested in inviting Dr. Christiane Routhier to testify before the committee.

9:45 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

There's also Dr. Stéphane Guay who has been a researcher with the Canadian Armed Forces for a number of years. Testing and conducting research on our veterans is his full-time job. It would be fascinating to hear what he has to say about the research he has conducted internally.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Chairman, should I understand from your answer that you think it's a good idea to have psychologists in the field?

9:45 a.m.

Psychologist and Professor, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Dr. Pascale Brillon

I think that the earlier our men and women in uniform get psychological help, the better off they will be. That won't mean that they will be able to go immediately and that they won't have to face certain taboos since consulting psychologists out in the field could be poorly looked upon, but soldiers would at least have the opportunity to see someone should they need to. Right now they have a lot of chaplains out in the field because they are servicemen and women themselves, but there still are no military psychologists accompanying them.