Veterans Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Is it just terminology then, the definition of a term? Is that what you're saying?

[Dr. Stéphane Guay]

Yes, I think so.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I've listened very carefully to what you've had to say today and I've also listened carefully to the questions that have been asked. This is always a wonderful opportunity to receive a bit of an education on something we may not be exposed to on a regular basis as members of the committee. So I do appreciate this. I also appreciate your taking the opportunity to lobby for funds for your specific clinic. I think if I were in your position, I would have done exactly the same thing today.

But one thing you said today that I have to disagree with—and I stand to be corrected—is that it's your understanding that a lot of veterans suffering from PTSD don't say anything because they're afraid of losing their jobs. You are, I'm sure, aware of the Veterans Charter that was passed earlier this year, which would take care of any veteran and retrain him if necessary. So I have to take exception to the comment that they don't come forward because they're afraid of losing their jobs. From my perspective, I would say that wouldn't be the reason they may be fearful of coming forward. I think it probably has more to do with the stigma that's attached; somehow that thought process is still out there in the military that if you've suffered from this, you're somehow less of a soldier—which I don't agree with. But the loss of jobs to me is really not a big issue, because the families will be taken care of, the soldier will be taken care of, and retraining is available, as well as a support system.

So I'd be interested in the rationale behind your thought that it's because they're afraid of losing their job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Was there a question in that, Betty?

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I asked him to give me the rationale behind it.

[Dr. Stéphane Guay]

I will answer as best I can. Actually, I would just like to clarify one thing.

Earlier, I was referring to soldiers who are still with National Defence, not veterans. As you say, once they're veterans, they can no longer lose their jobs or pensions if they say they have PTSD.

If changes have been made to National Defence policies in that regard, I am not aware of them. I do know, however, that these people want to keep their jobs as active soldiers, continue to be deployed on missions, and play a role that jibes with the training they have received. They want to avoid being assigned to other duties or simply acquire veteran status. That is a tremendous concern to them.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I had some comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Bear with me, Monsieur Perron. I'm in the awkward spot whereby we have spots for the Liberals and for the NDP still available, but none for the Bloc. If either the Liberals or the NDP were willing to—

Okay, Mr. Stoffer is nodding.

Monsieur Perron, go ahead.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I just want to add something to Stéphane's answer to Betty Hinton's question. I have seen a lot of soldiers and I can tell you exactly how it is. This is Grandpa Gilles Perron speaking now.

The young people say they like the army and their job, but they will lose all of that if they admit they have problems between the ears—if they have to climb the stairs of shame, as they call it in Valcartier, to see the mental health specialist on the second floor. They know, and you know, Ms. Hinton, and we also know that notwithstanding the Veterans Charter, they may wait months, or even years, before being treated for post-traumatic stress. Why?

In Quebec—and you can multiply the number by ten—there is only one place where people can get help, and that is Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue Hospital. However, there are only five beds available for hundreds of thousands of young people. This is a long-term issue. That means people aren't receiving a salary for a year and their family has nothing to live on. That is one of the factors underlying this problem. Another factor that shouldn't be forgotten, but that Stéphane did not mention, is that they are machos and, as far as they're concerned, it is not normal for a soldier to be sick. When they leave, they have really good reasons for doing so.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It goes back to the stigma.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Now it's over to Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Do you have time for another one?

[Dr. Stéphane Guay]

Yes, sir.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Fantastic.

Doctor, you mentioned, about debriefing, that there was no conclusive evidence that debriefing helped, and you mentioned a study. What was the size of the control group in that study around debriefing?

[Dr. Stéphane Guay]

There was not only one study, but a dozen or more studies carried out by researchers in various countries on different populations—so, they involved several hundred people.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, so there's a lot of confidence in it, then, because of the number.

I apologize if I missed it, but I got quite a detailed analysis of debriefing and not so much of decompression. Is that because decompression is contingent upon the disorder the individual has and the amount of time it would take? Or are there some stages that you can walk us through concerning what decompression looks like compared with debriefing?

[Dr. Stéphane Guay]

In terms of decompression, I am not sure exactly what your colleague to the left was referring to earlier. I believe that he was talking about the week during which, following a six-month mission, for example, soldiers are taken somewhere to decompress.

I am not sure exactly what they do during that week. A little earlier, I was talking about diffusing, as opposed to debriefing. Diffusing is more of an organizational intervention, as a matter of fact. It is intended to ascertain whether every person's role has been maintained. It is much more closely connected to the nature of the work than it is to problems or emotions. It's different.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I want to thank our witness very much for his presentation today. We all learned a lot.

I'd like to just deal with one matter of business here, in the sense that Mr. Valley has brought forward a notice of motion so that at our next meeting we'll be dealing with this: “That we continue our investigation into PTSD and at its conclusion we report it to the House as the first part of our health study.”

I believe it's been translated en français.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Chairman, with Mr. Perron's help, he corrected the last part. It says:“...report it to the House as the first part of our study on the VIP and health care review”. It's just adding the official title. That's what is said in the French version.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Is there any comment?

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Just about the translation. I did the translation, and I had it reviewed by Jean-Yves, Amy Mills and Michel. It accurately reflects the English version. So, the motion is being tabled in both languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Monsieur Perron, as long as you're happy with it, we're all happy with it.

Go ahead, Mrs. Hinton.