Veterans Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2006

[Verna Bruce]

That could be one of the models. I would just say here, because we've heard the minster say it before, that he really believes that all MPs are currently ombudsmen now, in one sense, for Canada's veterans. That would be a model you could take a look at, along with many others.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

There are only 15 seconds left.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I need that fifteen seconds.

I want to ask you a question.

I'd like to ask you a question. Would it be possible to ask Michel to prepare a list for us of all the veterans associations in Canada? That would be good for everybody. I think there are about 30 of them. Could he do a good search on the subject?

I lost my 15 seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'm just looking...there's somebody who's nodding around the table and I'm assuming that somebody has that list. Oh, bless you.

[Verna Bruce]

We of course have that, and we keep it updated on a regular basis. We could make it available to the chair or the clerk for distribution.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

That makes it a lot easier for us. Otherwise we're nervously looking at staff, thinking, does anybody want that monkey? Thank goodness you already have that monkey solved. Excellent.

I thought I'd just make a couple of comments. Monsieur Perron's question of who guards the guards reminds me of the Roman guards, the praetorians, and then Monsieur Gaudet's question with regard to travelling the country reminds me of Alfred the Great's courts, the first establishment of...anyhow, that's where the mind travels on history when I get caught up in these things.

Mr. Sweet for five minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome.

Mr. Hillier, I want to ask how long you have had a chance to work on this file now. I didn't catch that in your opening remarks.

[Keith Hillier]

It's been several months now.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Several months. I understand the magnitude of your job in trying to consolidate all these models, but is there any estimated timeline about when a decision might be made down the road? Just an estimate.

[Keith Hillier]

No, I really wouldn't be able to give you that estimate today. I think the consultation process is extremely important, and I certainly do not want those who are going to be consulted to feel that this is something that's being thrown at them. It's very difficult, and depending on what model is chosen at the end of the day, it might have a relationship in that regard.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I wrestle with two feelings. One, as some of my colleagues have said, is getting it done, and the other one is making sure you do it right and that you don't have to do it again. So I appreciate that.

We've talked about the older veterans and the younger veterans. From some of the meetings you've had, can you share a little bit about what the significant mindset differences are that you're going to have to consider as you go forward with this?

[Keith Hillier]

Certainly from having met with veterans organizations--and even some of what I might say are the longer-established veterans organizations do represent some of the modern-day veterans through their membership and through various affiliations and associations--what I see from talking to people is the fact that the modern-day veteran lives in a bit of a different world. Generally speaking, many of them are younger and have come up in a different society. They're career soldiers and in fact have been involved in multiple deployments.

That's certainly not to take anything away from what we'd call our traditional veterans. I see some differences in terms of what their expectation is in how they should be dealt with. I'm not sure if that really gets at it, but it is different. I have seen differences. For example, just last weekend I met with the peacekeepers association, and those people have been involved in the Gulf War or what have you. They have a certain perspective based on their experiences. Other organizations have perspectives based on their experiences.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

The reason for my question is that if they're like some of the other things we see that are morphing in our culture, they're less likely to join in. I didn't know whether that correlated with young veterans. If so, then that would seemingly make your job more difficult. You'd have to have more independent focus groups because there'd be no catchment in official organizations. Would that be the case?

[Verna Bruce]

I think it's fair to say that we know there are many young veterans who aren't part of official organizations, so part of our consultation package will be looking at doing some kind of focus group that can touch those folks.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, good.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right.

We have a minute-and-some left, if Mr. Mayes would like to get in some questions.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

At our last meeting we discussed some issues with the Veterans Review and Appeal Board and the numbers they were dealing with. My concern is that it's obvious there's quite a workload there. They mentioned that almost 60% of the appeals are upheld. My concern is if there's a way we can cut that volume down.

The ombudsman would be an advocate for the veterans, but wouldn't have any ability to vet the issues, and maybe lessen the load on the appeal board.

[Verna Bruce]

You'd have to be extremely careful. The Pension Act, which is the existing legislation, is very, very clear about how we have to handle anything related to veterans' pensions; there's no flexibility there. It is the Veterans Review and Appeal Board that handles the pensions. The ombudsman would not be able to supercede or interfere in any of those processes, but there are other issues that could be dealt with by the ombudsman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Now, who is our next keenest Liberal?

Mr. Rota.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I just have a quick question, Mr. Chair.

I know we just did the Veterans Charter last year, but regarding the term “bill of rights”, is that part of the Veterans Charter, or where does it come from? I'm just wondering where it suddenly appeared from, or has it been developing over the years?

[Verna Bruce]

It's interesting that it is something that has been available through different government departments, some of whom have bills of rights. As we started working on this, it was interesting to discover that the legion, unbeknownst to us, was also working on a bill of rights. So it seems that as government begins to focus on how we're servicing clients, there is an interest in looking at bills of rights, which are really service standards of what people can expect. You even see them when you go into banks sometimes, in terms of the bank saying, our clients can expect....

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

It was just something that I didn't remember seeing too often—in Canadian government anyway. It seems to be something in the U.S., but not really here. I thought the wording or nomenclature was an interesting change from what we normally do.

The other question I have is that if we have an ombudsman, will that take away from the powers the minister has? Let's say it's something that requires ministerial intervention. Would having an ombudsman interfere at all in that, or would the minister still have the ultimate say on what's going on?

[Verna Bruce]

Again, it depends on the model you choose, but you have to be really careful that with anything you do with the ombudsman, the minister is also bound by legislation. You can't create an ombudsman who's going to take away the authorities or responsibilities of a minister, unless you do it very deliberately—but I can't imagine anyone doing that. So you have the existing legislation that governs the minister, and then the ombudsman's authorities would have to fit within that.

Again, there are different models. An ombudsman may make recommendations to a minister, and then it's up to the minister to decide what to do. So there are different models that can be explored there.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Sorry for asking questions here. I guess at this point they're a little more difficult to ask.

One last question. I mentioned VRAB earlier, and I guess a possibility would be to dismantle it and merge it into the ombudsman's office, or keep it separate. You don't have any preferences at this point, I take it.

[Verna Bruce]

The mandate we've been given hasn't been to get rid of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board; we're looking at a mandate to create an ombudsman that fits within existing processes. That's the current focus we have.