Veterans Affairs Committee on May 15th, 2007

[Roméo Dallaire]

I'll give you a fast answer.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I'll make it a fast question.

Thank you.

It occurs to me that we treat soldiers who die in action quite a bit differently than those who are hurt in action. In that group, those who suffer “between the two ears”, to use your expression, versus those who lose a limb or what have you are subgrouped again.

When a young man or woman enters the military, is he or she told ahead of time what the odds are that you could end up in action, here's what could happen, and here's what we'll do for you?

[Roméo Dallaire]

Fascinating. Remember, we're an army that came out of 40 years of peacetime soldiering. We were in Germany, but I mean....

Over the last 15 years there's been an incredible learning curve, actually telling the young kid at the recruiting centre, “You know what? You might be going off to fight. That's a possibility. You could go into combat arms.” We never used to say that. We used to say, “Do you want a job for life? Do you want a trade?” So that has been shifting very rapidly.

I was commanding the military college during the Oka crisis, where we deployed five brigades with 3,000 troops at Oka. We were sure that seeing the troops in the field, helping sort out an insurrection, and doing it the way we did would enhance recruitment. At that time, people starting pulling their 17-year-olds away from the military college because they said, “Geez, they might be in operations where people actually hurt them.”

However, today the nature of this country has changed. Those under 30 see a responsibility well beyond our borders and our regional hassles. So there is a sense that they could sacrifice for something other than local needs. There is a re-education that's going on now.

They are now recruited with the idea that, yes, they are going to be committed to operations. How much they give in a detailed response, I really don't know.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Senator.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, Senator Dallaire.

I'm glad you took us up on the offer. I realize it didn't work out before, but it works very well now with the study we're doing on health care.

I know I have every intention to hopefully read your book.

[Roméo Dallaire]

The film is coming out at the end of September.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'd like to thank you and your assistants for making yourselves available today.

[Roméo Dallaire]

Well done to all of you.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We're going to suspend briefly, and then we're going to come back for Monsieur Perron.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We're back.

Monsieur Perron, you have some great experience, related at one of the previous committee meetings, in attending a PTSD conference. I think Senator Dallaire may even have dropped a reference to some involvement with that; I'm not sure. But we would love to hear what you have to present on PTSD.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to provide any biographical information. You all know me.

It feels strange to be facing you, but this is doing wonders for my ego. When my peers recognized all the work that I've done with regard to post-traumatic stress since I was elected, they are paying tribute to me and I am truly gratified.

Let's talk about the symposium I attended last week. My only problem is that I wasn't able to split myself into three or four. There were too many simultaneous workshops, and I wanted to attend them all. Unfortunately, this was not possible, but I tried to pick my workshops so as to best inform myself and you.

General Dallaire opened my eyes this morning when he said that a mental or intellectual injury, a war injury, was the same as a physical injury. This makes a lot of sense. However, I noted that General Dallaire still has a military culture. I am saying this because, last week at the conference, we were told that to effectively treat post-traumatic stress, some things were essential. First, the individual, like an alcoholic, must recognize that he or she has a problem. Second, the individual must be able to go somewhere to consult someone. Third, treatment must be available.

I believe that we should recommend that the Canadian Forces provide better training. When young people are in training, start to learn to fire an AK-47 and drive a tank, they should get some psychological training as well. We need to tell them how to recognize the symptoms of post-traumatic stress and recommend that they consult someone if they feel sick, because post-traumatic stress has a direct impact on physical health.

This morning, General Dallaire told us that these people need care and that it was urgent. Everyone who came to testify before the committee, including the experts, told us that the sooner this condition was diagnosed and individuals received treatment, the better their chances of healing. And there's more. I won't mention the names of the two or three individuals who talked to me about it because it's difficult, but I will say it anyway: we are wasting money trying to treat the mental injuries of soldiers and normal veterans, individuals aged 80 and over who fought in the Korean war and the Second World War and who are suffering from post-traumatic stress; instead, that money should be spent to improve their comfort level, so that they live out their remaining years in relative comfort. These individuals suffered their mental injuries 45 or 50 years ago or more, and they will not recover.

Therapists say that these individuals cannot recover. These people are marked for life. It's difficult to hear this and it's also difficult to say it. So let's spend the money making these people as comfortable as possible at home or wherever, instead of spending the money trying to fix something that they will never be able to recover from.

So we need to change the army mentality so that young macho men can recognize one day, during a mission, that they may be experiencing psychological problems and be injured. It's difficult to admit, but as soon as the individual recognizes what is happening, they need to seek treatment almost immediately.

I know of one case, and I provided the name to Alexander Roger. It concerns a young woman, Danielle, whom I met in Montreal. This young woman in her thirties suffered post-traumatic stress in Bosnia. She thought she was having a heart attack, and that is how her post-traumatic stress was diagnosed. Fortunately, a doctor told her that she wasn't having a heart attack but was rather suffering from a mental injury. She was brought here to Canada and treated immediately. She now works for the Department of Veterans Affairs in Kingston. She has completely recovered. It's interesting.

Something else that is somewhat unfortunate. To date, only 67% of young people suffering from mental injuries can recover, based on the statistics provided. So we have to treat them quickly.

What problems are we facing? I believe that the first is a shortage of professionals, psychiatrists and psychologists. When Mr. Dallaire says that Quebec psychologists can only treat 30% of all cases, he's right. I called the Quebec Federation of Psychologists. We need to attract more young people, among other things, and I have no idea how we're going to do it. Perhaps the universities need to train more experts in this field and teach them to treat serious post-traumatic stress. There are only 12 different stressful events that potentially require lifelong treatment: these include the accidental death of a best friend, rape, in the case of a young woman, incest, and a fire. In most cases, a serious trauma is related to a death or to an actual event. As a group, we must work to ensure that the society trains the greatest possible number of psychiatrists and psychologists.

Second, we must reduce the time that elapses between the moment when a young soldier on deployment recognizes that he may have post-traumatic stress and the time when he is assessed by specialists on the ground and brought back to the country to be treated as quickly as possible.

When General Dallaire talked to us about research at Ste. Anne's Hospital, I agreed. However, there is one thing we need to remember. We mustn't try to reinvent the wheel, since our American friends have been doing research on post-traumatic stress for 25 years already. The hair on my arms is almost standing on end when I think about how behind we are. I was pleasantly surprised when I learned that research centres such as those at McGill University, in Montreal, and the universities of Alberta or Manitoba were already doing research and had already identified solutions that they had shared with the Americans, who in turn were including in research done in Canada. This research must be continued, but as for making Ste. Anne's Hospital a specialized research facility... It could have a research department, but it is, first and foremost, a facility where mental injuries are healed. I use the term "injuries", because I liked my friend's choice of words.

One problem is that, currently, there is no way to determine how severe a mental injury is. We cannot say whether, percentage-wise, it is 50%, 75% or 80%. It almost depends on the technology or the caregiver's assessment. It's not like in other cases where we can rely on a chart or a blood analysis where, if various microbes are detected, a diagnosis of cancer is made. We are talking here about a little known illness. Twenty-five years is not a lot of time when it comes to medical research. So it is up to the doctor to say to what extent the brain has been damaged, and all the doctor has to go on is his or her instinct.

The problem is when the Department of Veterans Affairs decides to give a young CF member suffering from a mental injury 20% compensation because that is the rate of compensation at which the injury has been assessed. It's unfair. That approach is unfair because we don't really know to what extent the brain has been damaged. We don't know whether it is 10%, 15%, 50% or 92%.

Another major problem is the funding, both in the military, which is not allocating sufficient funds to the mental training of its recruits, and in civil society, where veterans are not receiving adequate treatment. For example, in Valcartier, Quebec, only 3.8% of the health care budget goes to mental health. Perhaps we also need to change the macho mentality of the young people joining the military. We need to tell them that they are strong, but they should also be told to be on the lookout for stress that can lead to mental problems.

That's essentially what I wanted to say. I'd be happy to have a discussion. I would prefer not to have any time limits imposed, but rather to operate on a principle of first come first served. This is a discussion among friends. I'm not going to pretend that I know everything and that I've seen everything; I simply want to share with you what I have learned.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We're asking you questions based on your taking in the symposium, which we didn't. How does that sound? So you're an expert, relative to everybody here.

Ms. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thanks, Gilles.

I appreciate what you're saying there. I was also made aware at the back of the room just a few minutes ago that apparently both symposiums were taped. You told us yourself very candidly that there were too many workshops to go to and you were unable to choose. If this is correct and these are taped, we might, as a committee, want to consider having a look at these.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Madam, I have already asked the people at Ste. Anne's Hospital to send me the bilingual tapes of all the workshops. As soon as I get them, I would be pleased to provide a copy to the committee.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

We don't want to infringe on anyone's copyright. Maybe we should just order a set as a committee.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

No, it will be almost entirely in English. In fact, 98% of the conference was in English, and there was no interpretation.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not worried about that, but I don't want to infringe on the copyright.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

No, no, that's for publication purposes. Ste. Anne's Hospital has given me its permission.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Apparently, the taping materials are about an hour each.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

There were 26 meetings.

So there are at least 26 hours of taped material.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

One of them was on PTSD, though, so that would be something to watch, for sure. We'd probably have to do that in the evening, because time is slipping past us here and we have to move forward with the rest of this health care review. But I think this is important to everybody at this table, so perhaps we could make some kind of an arrangement, once we get these tapes, to have a viewing in the evening sometime. Or maybe it would have to be two or three different evenings, given our collective schedules. We'd probably be hard pressed to get everybody together on one night.

You made it pretty clear that you found this was very educational for you. If you could name me one thing you came out of there with, what would be the highlight of your experience watching this? What did you walk out of there knowing now that you didn't know before?

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

We need to help these young people and ensure that staff is deployed to remote regions. This will be extremely difficult because there is a shortage of medical personnel, but at the very least we need to identify which young people have problems and advise them of where they can get a diagnosis and learn whether they will need treatment. This must be done as quickly as possible. We cannot wait two, three or five years to take care of these young people, because the longer we wait the more difficult it will be to treat them.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. So you think informing the current group of young people is the most important.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

And this applies even to those who have decided not to go on. I learned, and the specialists who came here repeated it, that, in cases where young people tried to fake a problem in order to get financial compensation, the specialists were able to say, after talking with them for approximately half an hour, that they were not suffering from post-traumatic stress but were simply trying to get money. The world being what it is, this kind of thing does happen.