Veterans Affairs Committee on May 15th, 2007

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Personally, senator, I am somewhat skeptical. I am listening to you and I don't understand how we can be spending billions of dollars. I don't want to attack any particular government. Nonetheless, all the previous governments have spent millions of dollars on equipment, but have not taught our soldiers anything. We are not managing to teach them how to go to war. Yet, 23,000 reservists may be called upon to go to war. Explain that to me.

At the beginning of your presentation, you said something that struck me. I was once mayor of a municipality and at the time, I would never have purchased something that no one knew how to use. However, I realize that here we are purchasing equipment without knowing whether the soldiers will be able to use it. I have a problem with this. You were in the army and you can give me an answer. You're talking about the political world, but I'm convinced that they're not solely responsible for all this.

[Roméo Dallaire]

Where are you from, sir?

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I represent the riding of Montcalm north of Montreal.

[Roméo Dallaire]

Of course, Saint-Émile-de-Montcalm is in your riding.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

It's not far; it used to be part of my riding.

[Roméo Dallaire]

My father has a cottage there.

To come back to your comment, it's not that the men aren't trained. The men I sent to Yugoslavia, among others, were trained. They knew how to use their equipment. Nevertheless, generally, we didn't have enough equipment to do the job. Furthermore, the equipment wasn't modern enough to allow us to do the job that needed to be done. In any case, the Canadian Forces have always operated on a wing and a prayer. However, equipment has greatly improved.

With regard to combat training, conducting operations under difficult conditions, peacekeeping, conflict resolution and so forth, training techniques have been updated a great deal, whether it be through the use of simulators or real equipment. The time factor also plays a role. Soldiers are in training for three months. They are currently in Wainwright, Texas. Before they leave for the front, they are subjected to harsh living conditions, and everything is taken much more seriously than before. We must remember that, during the Second World War, soldiers spent three years in England before seeing their first German, in Italy. After three years, they were no longer rookies. We don't have three years; however, we now take the time to train them, whereas we did not before.

There are still shortcomings where combat experience is concerned. I'm talking here about the way we take care of veterans, to start, then, once they have acquired their combat or conflict experience, the way we deal with that. There are not hundreds of thousands of us and we don't live in a country that, in the post-war period, created the first charter and education programs involving the purchase of land or farms. There are just a few of us. Our world is much more independent in this regard. I am not allowed to go into the soldiers' files: the Charter prohibits me from looking at confidential information. So, it's much more complicated. Nonetheless, soldiers are changed by the combat experience they acquire. But at the same time, many of the men are getting the short end of the stick.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I agree with you, but one thing bothers me somewhat. You said that, in a political arena, people preferred to purchase bayonets than to provide psychiatric or psychological care.

[Roméo Dallaire]

Yes, back when—

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

But is it better today? I am not saying that there are no doctors, but there don't seem to be very many. Two or three of them came to testify before this committee. Be that as it may, the list is not long. Piles of money are being spent to purchase equipment, but if we aren't able to take care of the establishment, there's a serious problem.

[Roméo Dallaire]

Mr. Gaudet, there aren't civilian doctors. In Quebec, barely 30% of the needs are being met. Even if we were to ask a psychiatrist to come and work on contract for us and we're able to pay that person a great deal more, nothing would change, since that doctor is already overwhelmed. In our society, there is an urgent need in this field, and this is especially true in the military world.

There were contracts and methodologies, now there is recruiting. We are even paying for students to attend university so that they'll come and work for us when they graduate. What we have today is 50 times better than what we had in 1997. We have clinics and people on the ground, but I have to tell you that it's not enough.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

True, because 50 times nothing is still nothing.

[Roméo Dallaire]

You're not going to tell me that you're a mathematician as well. I said 50 times better because previously there wasn't very much.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Like I said, I agree with you, but we need to do what needs to be done. Perhaps the government should invest in education by giving the provinces funding. In any case, we need psychiatrists. It's simple.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize. I rarely get carried away.

[Roméo Dallaire]

Congratulations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Does anyone from the Conservative side want five minutes?

Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

Senator Dallaire, as I mentioned, I think we met briefly about two or three years ago, when you spoke in London at an event and told your story. I can tell you that it was moving for everyone. You wonder how one individual can deal with the kind of trauma you went through.

We're talking about bringing in and initiating the clinics that you've indicated are essential and that the government now wants to bring on-line. We also had discussions with other people.

I think about the capabilities for getting professional people to staff, operate, and do the necessary treatment, as we have a backlog, but it's only for those who are here, when our health care system is stretched in the public sector. All of our towns can't get doctors. We have an issue pretty much across Canada in terms of that.

I know you'd mentioned in your opening talk that the military needs to require those, because we as a government are saying to individuals that they are going to serve their country. But we're still going to have a numbers issue on the capabilities of opening more of these. Is there a scenario you may have thought about that would help us in terms of some recommendations on how we could meet those capabilities?

[Roméo Dallaire]

It would really be something if we couldn't send troops overseas because we don't have the medical capabilities to take care of them. It would be an enormous irresponsibility.

We are having enormous problems trying to acquire and keep that capability. The traumatic stress dimension of it has been catching up with that. For the same reasons as in civilian life, it's also the stigmas, and so on.

If I may, the solution I would offer in regard to trying to meet the criteria is in fact informing the profession of the nature of the beast and opening them up to the possibility of this realm of research, teaching, and the production of therapists to meet this requirement.

Historically, we were nothing numbers-wise, and we had very few internally. It was really a mental health problem, with depression, and so on. In Germany, we even had therapists helping our families, wives, and so on, when we were overseas and far from family.

But we have moved into a new era, and the scale is now one that needs a realignment. As an example, for the Canadian Psychological Association, the Canadian Psychiatric Association, and so on, those organizations have to be brought into the process, informed of the scale and the need, and we need to work out a deal with them. We haven't done it that way.

We've done the contracting. There have been all kinds of contracts, but I'm talking about the actual professions. The professions need to see there is now a scale that warrants specializing in this area, which was not there before.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

You made a comment at the end, and I know Ms. Hinton touched on it, that we need to go to the field to witness the effects. Help me to understand a little about what it means. What is the value of having Veterans Affairs in the field to witness the effects? What would we be able to do with that, if it were to happen?

[Roméo Dallaire]

I think that going into the area and seeing how they're set up, how they live, the rhythm of work, and the nature of the dilemmas and decisions they have to take on a daily basis.... It doesn't necessarily mean going on patrol with them, although for some missions you could do that. When I was in Darfur recently for Prime Minister Martin, I went on patrol with them. It's a different scenario, but still.

However, I would like to offer the following. Why not go to Wainwright, where they're training? Why not go to Texas, where they're training? Why not go to Valcartier, where they're training and see them in preparations and training. Spend two or three days in the field with the platoon and actually live it.

National Defence has created a program where...you as a committee go with your specific look at what will this be an impact on. When I was in the ADM, we started to bring adjudicators from Veterans Canada—people from all walks of life—into the field. Holy smoke, when they started to realize what they have to do in a day.... There's no eight hours on and then you sleep; you're 24/7.

I think living the experience gives you the depth.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Our time is up.

Thank you.

[Roméo Dallaire]

I haThank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. St. Denis, for whatever time we may have left.

Senator Dallaire, it's your call.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I'll take a minute.