Veterans Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Let's get the show on the road. We have three studies under way: one with regard to the veterans bill of rights, another on the veterans ombudsman, and a third on the veterans independence program.

Today we have as our witnesses the Royal Canadian Legion, represented by Pierre Allard, director of the national service bureau, and Mary Ann Burdett, the dominion president. We open the floor to our witnesses to give us their presentation.

[Mary Ann Burdett, Dominion President, Royal Canadian Legion]

Thank you very much.

Honourable Chair and members, it is an honour for us to be here today to represent the Royal Canadian Legion and to offer our views on three matters related to veterans issues, namely the veterans bill of rights, the veterans ombudsman, and the veterans independence program. But before I deal with specifics I would like to address some fundamental principles.

Firstly, we would like to acknowledge the very important step taken by the current government to upgrade your committee to full standing committee status. Congratulations.

Our Canadian Forces members and veterans are special Canadians. They have risked their lives for the freedom that all Canadians enjoy on a daily basis. In recognizing their sacrifice Canadians should come to realize that no death is more important than another. As long as that death or that injury is linked to military service, and whether or not they served in World War II or in modern times, these heroic Canadians are all veterans who should receive the benefits they deserve.

Since the Korean War, more than 415 Canadian Forces personnel—sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen, regular force members, and reservists—have died for Canada. A very large number have suffered injuries. The Canadian Forces has only recently started keeping accurate track of deaths in operation and training. This is an essential requirement that will ensure that the 17 Canadian Forces members who recently died in Afghanistan and other Canadian military personnel will be suitably honoured in the seventh Book of Remembrance.

Since 1926, to help veterans and their families, the Legion has played a proactive advocacy role while also providing representational services to serving members, veterans, and dependants. We are proud of both of those roles and pursue them actively and constructively.

You've identified three priorities that are very important in the context of the new Veterans Charter, none more so than a veterans bill of rights. We posted a veterans bill of rights on our website in early March, 2006. That bill of rights states:

Canadian veterans, who have committed their lives and “service” for the freedoms Canadians enjoy today are special citizens. They deserve recognition, benefits and services to maintain an appropriate quality of life during all stages of their lives. Their special status should be recognized in all jurisdictions, federal, provincial and municipal. Veterans have a right to be treated with courtesy, with respect and in a timely fashion in all their contacts with Veterans Affairs Canada at all levels of the Department. This respect, courtesy and timeliness of service must also be demonstrated to their families and dependants. Veterans have a right to be fully informed of all programs and benefits to which they are eligible. In that respect, Veterans Affairs Canada has a responsibility to inform not only their current clients; it also has a responsibility to reach out in providing information to potential clients. Veterans have a right to be provided with equal benefits in any part of the country in which they or their dependants reside. Geographical location should not determine the quality or level of service provided. Confidentiality of information must be preserved. Veterans have a right to receive fair and equal treatment, irrespective of rank, position, or status. They should be treated with tact, comprehension and understanding. They should be involved in the decisions affecting their care and the formulation of programs and benefits. Veterans have a right to receive referral and representational assistance in presenting their claims for benefits and services in the official language of their choice. This assistance should be broad based, and should not be restricted to governmental agencies.

Having posted our draft veterans bill of rights on the Legion website in early March, 2006, we then shared this document with Veterans Affairs Canada. We firmly believe that the Government of Canada should adopt a robust bill of rights for veterans to ensure that their special service to Canada is recognized and compensated.

This bill of rights, however, should not be formulated as a service delivery. Any promise of exemplary service should flow from the bill of rights, not the reverse. We commented to VAC that their first version of a veterans bill of rights was clearly framed in the context of service delivery goals. The latest version is vastly improved but we still feel that any promise of first-class services should flow from the bill of rights.

Only this morning we met with five other veterans organizations and officials from Veterans Affairs, and one of the things we did was work extensively on the wording of the bill of rights. It has been back and forth among us a number of times and yet again we have spent some hours assisting with the wording of it. I do believe we have pretty well reached a consensus with Veterans Affairs and with the other service organizations so that we, at least, will be satisfied to bring the document very quickly to a final draft.

I'm sorry, I'm forgetting a paragraph that I left out when I ad libbed.

We understand that in your discussions, some members of this committee were of the opinion that responsibilities of veterans should also be spelled out. I would like to assuage your fears in this regard. The responsibilities of Canadian Forces members are very clear. They are there to serve the interests of the nation at the risk of paying the ultimate sacrifice. All veterans assume that risk during their military service. In our view, there can be no more demanding responsibility.

There have been widespread discussions on the issue of an ombudsman. The Legion remains convinced that an ombudsman has no role to play in the current legislated disability award pension process where there is access to representation at no cost, through either the Bureau of Pensions Advocates or the Legion Service Bureau. These provide free services, whether or not the veteran or dependant is a member of the Legion, in seeking redress from the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

Furthermore, if Veterans Affairs Canada feels the necessity to appoint an ombudsman, he or she should be fully independent of the Canadian Forces ombudsman. Unfortunately, when one asks for the appointment of an ombudsman, one may not fully understand exactly what is being asked for. There are various models of ombudsman. Some have a legislated mandate that defines very specifically the responsibilities. Others may be appointed under a regulatory process, again with specific responsibilities, while others may be appointed with a mandate to define the role in consultation with interested parties, including the government.

An ombudsman could also act as a last resort intervenor in the administrative decisions of Veterans Affairs Canada, in confirming eligibility for the non-economical programs of the new Veterans Charter in the context of a veterans bill of rights and could also deal with long-term care issues. If Veterans Affairs Canada does indeed see the need for an ombudsman, they should clarify what model they want to put in place. The bottom line for the Legion is that we need to better understand what would be the role and specific mandate of an ombudsman.

Again, I will ad lib for a moment. This subject was also included in our meeting that we held earlier today. We had a great deal of discussion on it and I feel quite confident that with continued open discussions of this nature between Veterans Affairs Canada and your veterans service organizations we will be able to reach a mutually satisfactory conclusion on that particular subject.

Next is the VIP. Vast improvements have been made in recent years to increase eligibility for the VIP for both veterans and spouses. In the same context, the Legion has been advocating for a seniors' independence program modelled on the very successful VIP.

VAC could continue to tweak the VIP program. However, we believe that it needs to be reviewed, primarily because it is based on an overly complex eligibility matrix with various entry gates, which creates confusions for veterans and providers.

For example, veterans can qualify for a VIP on the basis of a disability pension, as income-qualified clients, as overseas clients awaiting access to a priority access bed, or as frail veterans. Portability of VIP benefits is not assured if a client moves to a condo. Allied veterans have now regained access to long-term care, mostly in community facilities, but they lost their eligibility to war veterans allowance, which was their gateway to VIP. In other words, access to VIP is too complex and too restrictive, yet at times the regulations for eligibility are not framed in the context of aging in place.

VAC needs to put in place integrated services that are based on health needs rather than type of military service. Aging veterans should be eligible for appropriate early intervention, more intensive home supports, and a wider range of residential choices based on needs, without voiding their access to VIP. Hopefully the ongoing continuing care research program conducted between Veterans Affairs Canada and the Government of Ontario will provide hard data on the costs and outcomes of care-in-home care, supportive housing, and residential care facilities.

The bottom line is that access to VIP should be based on need, while its overriding objective should be to delay the transition to residential care and to promote aging in place, which was indeed its original objective.

We have very much appreciated the opportunity to appear at this committee to share our views on these extremely important veterans' issues that you have identified as your priorities. Throughout our 80 years of service, the Legion has taken very seriously the importance of our advocacy role in protecting veterans' rights. The Legion wants to make sure that those rights are identified and understood by all Canadians, and more fundamentally, fully addressed by the government and Veterans Affairs Canada.

Protecting those rights is more than a goal. To us it is a sacred trust, and we commend the committee highly for seeking to improve those rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Monsieur Allard, do you wish to add any commentary?

[Pierre Allard, Director, National Service Bureau, Royal Canadian Legion]

I have no comments at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much for your presentation, and for your congratulations on our becoming a full standing committee, for our choice of topics, and for our help to veterans.

I now go to Mr. Thibault for the first of the seven Liberal minutes.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here today, Mr. Allard and Ms. Burdett.

You made very professional and very good presentations, and I think you're quite clear on your points. I very much appreciate hearing from the Royal Canadian Legion.

I have a lot of military retirees, as well as war veterans, with the former military bases of Cornwallis and Greenwood in my riding. So I have a lot of interaction with members of your organization through my office.

My father was very proud of his association with your organization. He was a service officer and he was president of his legion. He was a World War II vet and a member of the West Novie Regiment. I was fortunate to go to the unveiling of a cairn of the West Novie at Camp Aldershot, which I point out is the oldest regiment in the country. I believe the Annapolis Regiment and the Lunenburg Regiment were amalgamated to form the West Novies. So I had a chance to see that.

My office works with and is in contact with many service officers in many branches in western Nova Scotia. We recognize the very difficult work they do.

One of the questions I would ask is on the pension advocates and that office at Veterans Affairs. In your relationships with them, as they apply or as they launch appeals and they work with them, are you satisfied with the professionalism of the service, the access to the service, the number of people employed in that division to service your members? Is it at the level that you would like, or would you like to see some improvements?

[Mary Ann Burdett]

Thank you for that question.

Certainly there is no end to the improvements we would like to see. The more there is for the veterans, the better satisfied we will be. Generally speaking--and it was a very general question--we have a good deal of satisfaction with that particular department.

However, I am going to ask Comrade Allard, as head of our service bureau, to answer you perhaps more specifically.

[Pierre Allard]

I'm not too sure if you were asking the question in relation to the advocacy done by the Legion and its service bureau or by Veterans Affairs Canada and their officials.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Monsieur Allard, what is important to me would be the link between the two, the interrelationship between the two and the work of the advocates. Are you satisfied with the way your members are being represented by the advocates who are appointed to help them? Is the turnaround time too low? Generally, is the professionalism of these people at the level you would like?

[Pierre Allard]

I will reply in two ways, if I may.

On the level of representation provided by the Legion as advocates or as service officers, I guess our model is really that of having service officers at the branch level who refer. They refer cases to the provincial command service officers or to the national command service officers.

At the level of what we call the command service officers, there is a very good rapport between us and VAC officials, because we have to be kept up to date with all the business processes that are in place in VAC if we want to serve our clients in a very professional manner.

We have regular training conferences, which we hold in specific regions during the odd years. In the even years, we actually bring all our command service officers to Charlottetown for a three-day training conference, where we basically get the training from the VAC officials that we need to be good service officers. We also have the tools that are provided to us by Veterans Affairs Canada, such as access to the client service delivery network. So I think we are well trained and well equipped to represent clients who do seek services.

If I were to comment on the structure that is in place at Veterans Affairs Canada, I would have to say that certainly BPA has the number of lawyers in place that they need. I think you were told last week that there's a new batch of BPA lawyers who have been brought on board. However, I think there is a rquirement to possibly appoint new members to the VRAB, because they obviously don't have sufficient numbers to meet the need.

So generally speaking, yes, the structures are there. Satisfaction surveys indicate that clients are well served. We've done a survey in Legion magazine, which actually confirms some of the results that Veterans Affairs Canada is espousing.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

When I'm asked by people who visit my office for the service of an ombudsman, that there be that position, it is because they don't necessarily find the satisfaction or the answer that they want and they would like an independent review. I find that to be a good idea. An independent review to see if things had been missed in their case might not be a bad idea, and I'm pleased that you're having discussions with the Department of Veterans Affairs as to how you would do that.

I think we're getting low on time, but I have one question and I'd be remiss if I did not put it to you.

In rural Nova Scotia, and rural Canada generally, the role played by the Royal Canadian Legion goes beyond service to legionnaires. The Legion has played a huge role of service to communities. We're seeing a period of time when the operation and maintenance of these legions is questioned, in many instances, where the local legions are having a lot of financial trouble, a lot of trouble continuing.

I'm wondering what kind of role you're playing, your organization nationally, to respond to these problems, and do you see a role for the Government of Canada in assisting these legions that may be in difficulty?

[Mary Ann Burdett]

From a national level, we can be somewhat restricted in the assistance we give to branches, because each and every branch is autonomous and they are very close about their autonomy. They do things on their own.

Within provincial commands, there is often means of assistance to some of these branches. If there are ways that we can get them training information, books to help them, suggestions, we do so; and of course, always at meetings we discuss the problems in the various parts of the country, rural and otherwise, and there is sometimes the assistance from one area to another, verbal support.

We are certainly there for the branches. We are trying our best. As to finances, society itself decrees that we are going to lose some branches. In so doing, it could be that others will become larger. It's just a sign of the times.

Unfortunately, people do not seem to want to do something any more because it feels good to do it. The barn-raising days of Saskatchewan's past I'm afraid are over. People do not always get out and volunteer in the same manner we used to.

We have to change with the times. We have to progress and look for new programs to continue our legions. We are working at it and looking for those all the time. Any ideas you have will be very, very welcome, I can assure you.

As far as government assistance is concerned, we are a free and independent organization. We would not want to be beholden to anybody, even our government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'd like to welcome our guests today.

I always have a great deal of difficulty when it comes to veterans, but I can assure you that I feel a great deal of gratitude toward them. With respect to the matter of an ombudsman, I have trouble understanding that the National Council of Veteran Associations, whose president is Mr. Chadderton, has no difficulty with the idea of an ombudsman, while the Royal Canadian Legion disagrees with the concept. Could that be because an ombudsman might interfere in your area? I don't know anything about this.

We have heard reference to the Veterans Charter. Most Canadian associations agree with the charter, with the exception of the Legion to some extent. We also talked about the Veterans Independence Program, the VIP. Society should be somewhat opposed to this program. I want to tell you about my father, André Perron, who spent 50 years of his life working underground in the copper mines in Rouyn-Noranda, in the Abitibi region, and who died of asbestosis. Unlike veterans, there was no program to help him. He too gave his life for the well-being of everyone seated at this table. He gave his life so that copper wires could be manufactured for our lighting and air conditioning systems. And yet he got nothing for that. The problem with Canadian society at the moment is that it is aging and people who made a direct contribution to Canadian democracy are not enjoying the same support as our veterans.

Based on what I've said, I would like you to explain the role the Canadian Legion should be playing in 2006.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

I hope I got all of that.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'll start over again. I know the chairman will give me another half an hour to talk.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

I will attempt to answer your question first, sir, and then perhaps if I have missed something, Comrade Allard will take over.

In answer to your first question about the difference in attitudes of Mr. Chadderton's organization and the Royal Canadian Legion, I can only tell you that his organization was well represented at the meeting earlier today, as was ours, and we seem to be coming from very much the same places in a lot of ways. I think some of the misconceptions about an ombudsman have stemmed from, as I mentioned earlier, over the past, when you ask for an ombudsman, what do you want? We don't know what this ombudsman is going to do, and I think all of us have had a different conception of what an ombudsman would be. When we can get together and discuss these things openly, as we did earlier today, I think these things will all come together.

As far as what the Legion is doing for the community is concerned, as we have lost many of our traditional veterans, our workload in looking after them has become lighter, and I do believe most legions have indeed opened their doors in many ways. Our membership programs have certainly opened up to include almost anybody. As long as you are a Canadian citizen and of good character, you have eligibility to join the Legion.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

To join the social club of the Legion.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

No, to join as a voting member, in some cases, sir. You may have to be there for a couple of years. There are all kinds of memberships. Anybody who is interested should check with their local branch on eligibility factors, because if you're a good Canadian citizen, you can probably join.

The things that have been done go out into the community. The Legion strongly supports youth sports, bursaries and scholarships, track and field, seniors housing, and you do not have to be a member of the Legion to participate in any of those. It is done for the community.

Pierre, have I missed anything out of that?

[Pierre Allard]

With respect to the ombudsman and the Veterans Charter, the six veterans' organizations that met this morning are of the same opinion. They must simply define what is meant by the term ombudsman. Once we have done that...

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I thought that was the point of our meeting today. You should help us to find what an ombudsman is and how you view this position. You have not discussed your opinion about the ombudsman at all.

What do you think? What veterans' rights should be defined in the Veterans charter? How do you see the Charter? We are here to decide what the duties of the ombudsman will be in light of your views and those of other veterans. But that is not what is happening. You are leaving it up to the government...

[Pierre Allard]

We have just shared with you our views about what the Veterans Charter should contain. I can reread that to you. We also said that we have achieved some consensus on a draft, not necessarily the final draft, because we will not be adopting the Veterans Charter. That will be done by the government and the Department of Veterans Affairs.

There are various ombudsman models. You heard from Mr. Keith Hillier, who described some of them. I think the Royal Canadian Legion could...

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Which model do you prefer?

[Pierre Allard]

Will you give me an opportunity to speak? I cannot speak while I'm listening.

A good model would be one where the ombudsman could be involved in administrative decisions regarding the various health programs provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs. We are not sure that an ombudsman could play a role in the area of disability pensions or compensation because that would require an amendment to the act. If that were the model chosen and if the law had to be revised, we would certainly be flexible, but we would ask to be consulted in the drafting of the legislation.

What I am trying to say is that we are very flexible, regardless of the model, and that we will work with Veterans Affairs Canada and other veterans organizations to try to find a model that everyone finds acceptable. I assume your committee would want to be consulted about the model as well.

I must add that I don't think it's fair to describe the Legion as a social club, in view of the advocacy that we do

I apologize, but I don't know exactly how to say that in French.

The Legion's benefits to society may be attributable to the fact that we are a social club, but I think that isn't an accurate description of the Legion, if that is all that is said.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay. That was a passionate exchange. It was good stuff.

We'll now go to Mrs. Hinton, for the Conservative Party.