Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2008

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Good afternoon, Mrs. Gibson. I very much enjoyed your presentation, despite the lack of time that was allotted to you, and I want to congratulate you on it. Perhaps we could have given you a few more minutes, in view of the interest your presentation raised among committee members.

We know today that a boy or a girl who decides to join the Armed Forces is under the responsibility of the Department of National Defence. When he or she leaves National Defence, that responsibility is transferred to the Department of Veterans Affairs.

As Mr. Perron said earlier, there is little training or information on the consequences or the mental health problems that may arise.

In one article, for example, we learned that, in the United States, at least 6,256 persons who had served in the Armed Forces committed suicide in 2005, an average of 17 persons a day. The average in the general population is 8.9 per 100,000 inhabitants, and the average for veterans in the United States is 18.7 to 20.8, twice that figure.

Veterans in my riding are lacking information. First, they spent time in the Canadian Armed Forces. They went into combat. They have a file number as veterans, but today those individuals are elderly, often disabled and have lost quality of life. They are therefore left to their own devices because they don't know that there is a health program for veterans. They don't know that they could be receiving some kind of financial compensation or that various programs are there. Unfortunately, veterans are left to their own devices from the moment they leave National Defence.

This happens at the expense of their health and families. A number of them become discouraged and commit suicide. I think veterans should at least be informed about federal government financial assistance from the moment they join the Armed Forces. Veterans should also be constantly monitored to eliminate health problems or at least to provide them with the services to which they're entitled as veterans.

If a veteran from my riding came to see me in my office and asked me whether I could tell him where in Quebec he could get the relevant information for veterans, I would be at a bit of a loss and I would have to turn to Mr. Perron—somewhat as I did this morning—in order to be able to communicate with the Department of Veterans Affairs.

I think there is a considerable lack of information on health, follow-up, programs and financial assistance to which people are entitled. People often can't stand it and decide to commit suicide. There are cases of suicide, but there are also cases of murder.

I would like you to tell me how the government could improve the federal system in order to help veterans and to reassure them about health programs.

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

I can offer some experience.

I don't know that I have the answer to what the government should do, but one of the things that's really dramatic that's happening with younger populations is the reliance on the Internet. Not our elderly population so much, but younger populations go to the Internet to get information. And I think an informed public is a good thing. I think one of the best things we can do is get the information out there in user-friendly websites so that anything that is public information and anybody who wants to learn about it can learn about it. Because you or I or anyone else is not able to retain all the information about all the services, programs, and different aspects of things, and veterans' care is only one of the things you need to have on your plate.

I can't tell you about a clinic I'm not involved with, but it would be easy enough to find the information. I agree with you, I think more information is better, and the way of the future is Internet access, so good websites that put everything available to the public out there in easily accessible ways is the way to go. If there's information that people should be able to access and that you should be able to direct people to, figure out ways to get it on the web.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You may continue, madam.

Finish your explanation. The time limit is not for you, it's for us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Part of the reason I show committee members the clock is that they are showing courtesy to the other members who are waiting in line to ask questions.

Thank you very much.

Now over to the Conservative Party of Canada, Mr. Epp, for five minutes.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you.

Welcome to the committee. I appreciate your presentation.

You made a statement earlier that I found intriguing. You said that generally in the seniors facilities the number of females exceeds the number of males, and certainly that's true. I think of the place where my mother is: it's three-quarters female and one-quarter male. You said that with respect to veterans those numbers are reversed. That leads me to believe... I wonder whether the veterans, who probably are more representative of the male of the species, go to these places when they are younger? Is that what's happening?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

I don't follow you.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

If there are more men there, is that because a disproportionate number of the armed forces, especially at that age and back then, were men than women? Is that the reason, or do they come to the centres earlier in life?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

No. In Parkwood Hospital, where I work, the priority access beds are 98% for veterans simply because they are coming from an era of the Second World War and the Korean War when men were much more likely to be involved. That will also change when geriatric services are needed for current cohorts of veterans. We will see many more women than we do now when people from the armed forces today become veterans and need geriatric services in their old age. But right now the war veteran population is mostly male.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Okay. The place where you work is primarily veterans?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

Let me remind the committee for my own purposes that I am here representing the National Initiative for the Care of the Elderly. I happen, as a member of that, to work at Parkwood Hospital, which is part of St. Joseph's Health Care London, a large hospital with a lot of different kinds of services, but it does include 300-plus beds with priority access for veterans, and I have been working there for 15 years.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Okay.

The next question I have also has to do with gender. Is there a significant difference in the psychological needs in terms of intervention between the males and the females? Is it different or is it similar?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

I think in the gerontological literature we're starting to see more appreciation of the issue of gender and more realization that as men and women age—what it's all about is aging successfully, happily, actively, whatever it happens to be—they have had different life courses, different activities and interests, and they've gotten to different outcomes in their lives. They might all need, for example, some supportive counselling, but the content of that counselling is going to be driven by who they are, which is in part driven by the fact that they're men versus women.

So a man might, for example, find the retirement stage of life a very challenging psychological period, whereas perhaps an older woman who didn't experience a retirement phase of life, but experienced something else to do with family or whatever, depending on how she lived her life, is going to have different issues. Our current generation of older women were less likely to have worked outside the home. Depending on how she lived her life, her issues are going to be different. The content of her counselling and her interaction with a mental health provider is going to be different from the man's.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Okay.

It seems to me also, just in my observations, that one of the largest problems in these facilities is the issue of loneliness. I wonder whether you would address that generally, especially because of the fact that often you have these centres to look after the elderly. They are not available where the people live, so they will end up actually moving farther away from friends and family because they need the physical facility. Do you have any comments or recommendations in that regard?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

I do. I think that loneliness is a huge problem for older adults, and I think it's one that's not easily solved, because in part it's a result of circumstances.

If you think of the statistics, 2,000 veterans are passing on per month--I think that was the statistic that came out of the Gerontological Advisory Council's report. Many older veterans become lonely because their associates pass on. One of the advantages to communal living environments for older people is that if the environments are designed and programmed properly, they can combat loneliness. So the problem of keeping people in the community can be that their circumstances in terms of friends and families change such that through no fault of their own they become socially isolated and lonely. Communal living environments, be they assisted living or long-term care or whatever, that have good programming can give people a new lease on life and a new opportunity to participate in things and to become engaged in things and to really enjoy their last years in a way they wouldn't have if they were still living independently in the community.

So you have to be careful, in terms of promoting independence and community living, to make sure that people don't outlive the supportive network that's available to them and, through no fault of their own, come to require the development and the assistance to develop another supportive network, if they are going to have social connectedness and friendship and all the rest of it in their latter years. Loneliness is a huge problem.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

The chairman is busy, so I have one—

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You're over time, if that's what you were going to ask, sir.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

I don't want to ask about the time. Let me just finish this round, unless you're going to cut me off, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Well, if the other committee members are amenable to that, sir....

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Yes, I'll just be about another minute.

The reason is I have a 94-year-old mother and she is in one of these facilities. I go to visit her as often as I can, but unfortunately she's some eight hours away from where I live, so it's not that often. But I go there and I observe.

I observe that one of the biggest psychological problems that she and her friends there experience, I think, is that transition from being useful and helpful to others and giving, to being on the receiving end, to needing help, instead of being able to give help. Generally, when I talk to especially the old men in that place, they feel so useless. They want to fix something, they want to do something, they want to build something. They're doers, and suddenly they don't have that opportunity there.

I often think that some of these seniors places should have some activity that is actually useful in the community, maybe something they could build, making lampposts that can be spread throughout the town. Then these guys can say, “Look, we built those”. It gives them something. Is there anything like that generally? Again, just give a general response.

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

The large veterans care facilities across the country, like Parkwood, and there are 12 or 14 of them, are extremely well equipped. They have all sorts of activity options. Parkwood, for example, has a woodworking studio, a clay studio, a textile studio, bowling alley, pub, and a putting green. There are lots of leisure and recreation activities. It's viewed as “This is your life. You live here.”

Your quality of life is important. You need to have recreational activities that are appealing to you, so that means a range of activities, and you need to have an opportunity, if you so choose, to be involved in things that are more work-like, such as building things, being involved with the intergenerational programming and so on.

The concept that residential care facilities need to be communities in which there is a range of activities people can engage in so they experience both pleasure and meaning as they live out the end of their lives is well accepted in the gerontological literature and well studied in terms of how important that is for people's well-being and health. Does it always get into practice? Not always. Not everywhere.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You've been exceptionally kind to me as a visitor here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Sir, you've gone 10 minutes and 13 seconds, which is quite impressive. Yes, the committee members have been gracious.

There was a spot for one of the opposition parties, Mr. Epp doubled his time, and that spot was not taken by one of the parties, so now it moves to the Conservative Party yet again.

Ms. Hinton, for five minutes. After that, it's Mr. Stoffer.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I doubt very much that I will take five minutes.

I would like to begin by thanking you for appearing today, Ms. Gibson.

I apologize profusely for my late arrival. I take the veterans affairs issues very, very seriously.

I was delayed because I had the pleasure of meeting a gentleman named Guy Gruwez, who is a special visitor from Belgium, and his wife. Mr. Gruwez is visiting from Ypres, Belgium. He is the honorary chair of the Last Post Association in that country, and he has chaired that position for 40 years. He had an opportunity to meet with the Prime Minister, and I was privileged to be there with him.

So I do apologize for being late. I give you my word that I will read your testimony from cover to cover. I appreciate that I have capable colleagues who stood in my place.

I did get back in time to hear a comment from Mr. Asselin, who is also a visitor to this committee today. He talked with great passion regarding veterans, which I do appreciate.

One concern I have is that you made a statement that 70 veterans commit suicide each day. I asked the clerk where that came from, and apparently it is a newspaper. I would like you to table that. That number sounds absolutely obscene, and I would appreciate very much if we could get to the bottom of that.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I don't want to get into debate; I just want to see the document.