Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2008

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I would like to give Ms. Hinton some information. It's an American study.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm sorry, I don't have my earpiece in because it's my speaking time.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It's important to give you the information.

These are American statistics that appeared in La Presse. According to the article, approximately 6,250 Americans committed suicide, which means 17 a day.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you. That's clarification enough, then. That has nothing to do with Canadian veterans. When I heard that 70 veterans were committing suicide each day, the red flags went up. I thought that was virtually impossible.

Now I understand. I also understand that it is the newspaper, so it would be an opinion piece, and it's not backed up with statistics.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

They are American stats.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay, American stats. Well, Americans are in a lot of different war-torn places, so the number of suicides may or may not be accurate. But I wanted to check on that.

In terms of my late arrival, and I hope you accept my apology, is there anything you would like to leave this committee with, as a last word, if you will? Is there something you feel we should be aware of so we can do a better job of serving our veterans?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

I think the folks around the table have raised really important issues, and I'm very reassured to see the depth of concern and the depth of understanding of both gerontology and veterans issues. You don't always encounter that when you're talking to a group. So I feel that we're in good hands to see what will come of the committee's work, and I appreciate the opportunity to have participated in that.

Thank you.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thanks very much.

If either of my colleagues has anything to add and I have any time left, please feel free to use it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

There's a minute and a half, if they wish.

Mr. Epp.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

I have just one quick question. It has to do with people who are in your line of work.

Are there adequate training facilities in Canada to train for the geriatric service industry? I almost shouldn't use that term, but as regards training of workers who will care for the elderly, are there adequate facilities in Canada? Do you have a staff shortage in that area?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

It isn't so much about the adequate facilities, it's whether there are geriatric courses on the curricula of universities. I would say that in psychology departments we aren't doing well enough in that area at the moment to be prepared to serve the changing demographic, the increasing number of elderly people. I think everyone is aware of that. But the short answer would be that we in psychology, as well as in other health professions, need to ramp up our training in geriatric issues—definitely.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to the New Democratic Party and Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier we had talked about the aspect of where we would find the future psychologists to help our aged and our veterans. You had mentioned war-torn experiences and the military aura that is around it, I think you succinctly stated, because of the remembrance, things such as veterans week and everything else, and the pride they have in their medals and people thanking them.

The nice thing in Canada over the last bunch of years is that there has been a new, growing awareness of our veterans. I think one of the reasons for that is probably because so many World War II and Korean veterans are getting older and the fact that we lose an awful lot of them every day because of old age or sickness.

For people training to be psychologists, especially when it comes to veterans and their families, would you recommend that they have not necessarily military experience, but an embedded experience with the military when they go not just to Afghanistan, but to Haiti, to Bosnia, or wherever they go in the world, so that they themselves can experience at a younger age some of the concerns these men and women will face 20 or 40 years down the road?

The reason I say that is in the study of PTSD we found that PTSD can strike you right away or it can afflict you years down the road. When they're going to people at OSI centres and such and talking to them, we've found that the people who were talking back should have a clear understanding of what it was like for them in that regard.

Would you make that recommendation, if the government were to fund that type of activity, to assist people training to be psychologists for specifically the military, veterans and their families, that they have an embedded experience in that regard?

[Dr. Maggie Gibson]

I understand what you're suggesting. I wouldn't recommend that because I don't think that's exactly how it works. You can end up working in a variety of different areas, so you're not going to have a whole lot of people who are, at the get-go, declaring a career in veteran-specific psychology, for example. You wouldn't have a huge number of people who make that kind of clear and very defined career choice. I think the broader issue is that in training in disciplines such as psychology, medicine, or whatever, it's not the kind of counselling model where the expectation is that the healer should have the experience of the people they're going to help.

For example, for psychologists who choose to work in child abuse, or psychologists who choose to work with epilepsy, or psychologists who choose to work with dementia, it's the scientist-practitioner model, but it's where you're building on the body of work and you're definitely getting practical experience in your training working with that population but not necessarily personal experience. In many cases, it's not feasible and not the training model.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

At this stage, unless there are any other committee members who wish to add in at this point, I think we've exhausted questions.

Before we depart, we do have some things with regard to our logistics officer and the upcoming trip. There are some packages that will be handed around, and she'll be available to answer any questions.

So at this stage now, thank you very much to our witness for your presentation and for answering our questions. I know Mr. Epp, particularly, is appreciative of the time you took to answer his questions. You were very accommodating. Thank you very much.

If you don't mind, I'm sure some committee members will come by to thank you. We appreciate your visit.

Before everybody leaves, though, I just want to address some of the things about the itinerary and the upcoming trip.

Just so that Mr. Stoffer and others are aware of how this works, our person at the back, Kate, who's delivered these packages to us, is not able to appear as a witness, so if you do have questions, officially the way it's supposed to work is that you direct them through the chair.

Could everybody please open their packages and itineraries? As you can see, there's a cheque for per diems and what have you. I'm just flipping through here. We have some calculations of the per diems, both in English and French, the people who will be accompanying us. Now we see Kate's full name, Kate Bourke. We have the itinerary here. I'm just flipping through. I'm sure you're doing the same. There are maps.

Just bear with me one second, Mr. Epp, I'm just making sure I'm familiar with the document before we start referring to it.

Now, as recognized, we'll hear from Mr. St. Denis and then it's Mr. Epp on deck.

Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I comment just to commend the clerk and Kate for accommodating a number of suggestions along the way. They're doing a great job.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Epp.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Mr. Chairman, as you know, I'm here on behalf of Mr. Sweet, my colleague, today, and I would be remiss if I didn't bring him a cheque.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I believe the suggestion, Mr. Epp, is that we will trust internal mail to do that.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Well, as long as he doesn't hold me accountable for losing this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Oh, that's right--Mr. Sweet will not be attending. He will not be accompanying us, actually.