Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 28th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

It's been a while since we last had a chance to sit down and break bread eyeball to eyeball.

Today we have a shortened committee meeting, as you well understand, because we have a vote coming up on a fairly important budget-related issue at 5:15.

Some things I think it would be good for us to deal with include some of the future witnesses and the situation with our travelling to Petawawa and Valcartier.

I imagine we'll probably want to have a discussion with regard to the gleanings we've gained from the visits to the various bases. We'll have some thoughts. I know I have some things to contribute and share on that matter. If we want to, at some point we can also probably think about setting a time for looking at the budgetary estimates, because we haven't had a chance to really delve into that yet as a committee.

Anyhow, having said that, maybe I should start us off. I'm glad to see that some of you are raising your hands. Bear with me a second, as I'm just going to contribute a few of my thoughts with regard to our recent base visits and get that off my chest.

I'm just scrolling down here--excuse me while I do this--to find where I made my notes. Where did I make those notes? Oh, here we go. These are my notes on health care review.

One of the notes I had down here was getting rid of the 67-day in-theatre requirement to get decompression in Cyprus. I'm trying to remember exactly, but I think it was in Cold Lake that some of the people we visited said that even if somebody was in theatre for 10 days instead of 67, they may suffer some sort of traumatic incident, etc., that would certainly put them in the category of requiring some sort of decompression or of dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder, etc. We can examine that in terms of its value. I think it probably is a fair point.

This was an interesting point. People talked about mini-decompressions being a good idea throughout their deployment in-theatre and the ability to get away from theatre so they didn't feel the stress of theatre. I understand and I appreciate this idea, but the fascinating point about it is that from talking with some of the people I know who are active in service in the military, I know that does happen. They do receive either a week or two weeks off, I think, after so many weeks in-theatre. I've heard that some of them leave Afghanistan and go to various places--Bali, etc. So while I think the idea is a valid one, it's also something that I think actually does happen.

That's fair enough. It was interesting they would mention it, even though it seems to be going on already.

One of a number of issues we've dealt with before is the idea that they have a single caseworker to deal with. It seems that having to bounce around from caseworker to caseworker in dealing with Veterans Affairs or what have you was a real frustration for a lot of them. I thought that was a fairly cogent point that we've heard a number of times.

Another point we heard when meeting with the military families--I believe it was at Cold Lake, but it might have been Comox--had to do with allowing the spouse to deal with caseworkers on behalf of the veteran. I thought that was an interesting suggestion, because sometimes the veteran is not, in a sense, the person best able to face up to their PTSD or what have you. I thought that was an interesting point.

Obviously we've heard many times the idea that more doctors and PTSD counsellors are needed. That, of course, is always a function of money and time for training, because we don't just create them out of cereal boxes; it takes time to actually produce those people.

The question of whether a family social work assessment should be mandatory was also raised. We recognize that a family social work assessment is good, but because certain members of the family and certain members of the military are not active, in a sense the government really doesn't have a right to compel them to undergo a family social work assessment, even though it's probably a wise idea.

Anyhow, those are some of the thoughts I had off the top of my head. We do have a draft report that Michel produced for us, and I think these things are all adding to that.

We do have a speaking order. I think I saw more than two hands up, but I could be wrong. Anyhow, I'm going to go with the list we have. I have two on the list, Mr. St. Denis and Mrs. Hinton, and I think there is also Monsieur Perron.

I'm sure there were other hands up; please indicate, and we'll add you to the list.

We'll go on to Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I probably have more to say than my time allotment will allow, so I'll probably have to break this up into a couple of installments.

First, on a technical matter, Michel wasn't able to go, so Melissa, a colleague, joined us for the trip and did a capable job.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

She was so nice.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Presumably she was able to take notes, so in the normal course of events she would summarize the trip.

It was very unfortunate that our Conservative friends on the committee were not allowed to go. That's what I take the case to be, because--

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That's incorrect.

[An hon. member]

Not these two.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]...mentioned right at the outset.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

No. I know you couldn't go, David. Anyway, as it turned out, if you didn't know, there was only Rob there for the first two days, and there were no Conservatives for the last two days of the trip.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

We were called back.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

No, they didn't go. We were here in Ottawa. They didn't go.

I'm not making an issue of that. It's your party's business to tell you guys what to do and what not to do.

We missed you. Those days in Shearwater and Cold Lake were fantastic. They were incredibly interesting, and some ideas came out of those two meetings that didn't come up at the first two and didn't even come up in all the hearings before, so I want to be sure to underline how wonderful the meeting was at Cold Lake.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

It was Goose Bay, Labrador.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Goose Bay, Labrador--did I say Cold Lake, Labrador? It was cold, though.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

There's not a warm lake in Labrador at this time of year, I can guarantee you that.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

It was a cold lake--

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

They're all cold lakes in Labrador at this time of year.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

--in Goose Bay.

I made some notes. Combined with Melissa's notes--and my colleagues will have their own ideas--a few things came out that I would certainly want to see us discuss around the table for inclusion in a meeting.

I'll just mention one. There was a passionate plea by the senior guy, the major who was taking the next group to Afghanistan, about the degree to which a head of an assignment in Afghanistan.... This relates to PTSD in the field and what happens when they become veterans. In some cases, they're away from families for up to 11 months. There are five months of training, they may come home for a week or two, and then they're back out for six months.

We support our military, but at the same time, we can't ask them to do more than they are physically, mentally, and emotionally capable of doing.

It's because of the assignments they're having to take and because the retraining.... The training you need to go out in the field has to be renewed every so often. Is it every two years or something?

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It's every two years.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

It's every two years, so if you're in Afghanistan and then you go back in two years and one month, you have to redo the whole training again.

I know it doesn't directly relate to.... That's operational, that's DND, but we're in that zone, and it became clearer than ever to me that there is a transition time that both our committee and DND need to be engaged in. They become Veterans Affairs clients as soon as they become veterans, which is the day after they leave the military, so there is a joint responsibility. Right now they're treated as being in silos. You're with DND until you're not with us, and then you're with VAC if you're not with DND. It just seems to me that the whole idea of the transition is worth.... It may be only a statement in our report that the transition itself just needs to be looked at more carefully.

There were some other ideas I had, but on a personal level, it was unfortunate that some of you weren't able to go. You missed a couple of really good meetings. I leave it to others if they want to say anything else about it.

Our staff did no bragging on their own; they just sucked all the changes in. I know they did a tremendous job in having to cancel a trip and then put it back on track within a matter of hours. They just did what they needed to do as professionals, and they were very professional about it. I just wanted to mention that.

I'll leave it at that for now. Those are some ideas from my little book of notes that I'd like to put on the table as we get back to the report. I'm not sure if Melissa actually prepares a little summary or something that we can look at; that would be good.

We should probably pick a date to wind up the report. I know it's essentially done, except maybe for some tweaking based on this last trip. As soon as we can, I think we should wind it up, because no one knows when we're going to be into an election.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'd like to respond. Then I'll allow Mrs. Hinton to carry on with the next one. Then we have Mr. Perron on deck as well.

First off, the concept of being away from their families for 11 months touches my heart too. I think it's usually supposed to be six. I know I've met people on board some of our frigates who are in specialized trades and who have been there for 18 months. This was during Operation Apollo in the Arabian Sea. It was because it's a specialized trade, and they didn't have anybody to fill the spot. It's very unfortunate, but if you don't have someone in those roles, the ships literally wouldn't operate properly. It's very unfortunate, and hopefully there's a way we can hire some more of those people in specialized trades.

I agree with regard to the issues about transition from DND to VAC. We hear that occasionally.

As far as the date for the report is concerned, I think part of the reason we are discussing this here today is that we do want to produce something for the House. Having said that, though, I do ask committee members to keep in mind that we do have budgets already approved for travel to Petawawa and to Valcartier; you may not want to produce the report before you travel there, given that you're travelling to Petawawa and Valcartier for the purpose of producing the report. I'm the guy who has to represent you at the Liaison Committee to get you funding for these things, so I ask you to be cognizant of that.

As for my absence on the second leg of the trip, I was sick as a dog. I picked up a flu in Cold Lake. Anyhow, these things happen.

Now we'll go to Ms. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I regret that I wasn't able to attend, but I was never scheduled to attend, and neither was my colleague Mr. Sweet. I'm sure there was a lot to learn and a lot to be gained by going directly to the bases.

I listened carefully to what my colleague Mr. St. Denis has mentioned and also to what my colleague Mr. Anders has mentioned. I heard a bit of a mix in there of things that fall under Veterans Affairs and things that fall under Defence.

I'm wondering whether it would be possible for us to spend some time casually after the meeting to draw the line between the two, and if there are recommendations members on this committee feel should be forwarded to the defence committee, perhaps we should do that. There's a definite line between what is Defence and what is Veterans Affairs, but because we're dealing with the same people eventually, it would be rather nice to be able to follow through smoothly. A couple of the things Rob mentioned and a couple of the things Brent mentioned fell into those categories. On this trip you were basically dealing with serving members, so that would definitely be the Defence purview, but there was a mix.

Are you shaking your heard to mean no, Roger? There was a mix.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

There were lots of retired people there who were on pensions.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Good, so you had a mix; that's wonderful to hear.

Again, I regret it, and I echo the sentiments of Mr. St. Denis: it's unfortunate that sometimes in a minority government situation there is some paranoia, and when two or three members from the opposition pull out, then the government pulls back our members. It's unfortunate, and hopefully on the next two trips we're scheduled to make, which are closer to home, that won't be a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I think Ms. Hinton makes a fair point about our commenting on whether it's 6, 11, or 18 months. That's the serving military; we get them when they're done. Okay, that's a fair point.

Go ahead, Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chairman, the first part of the trip to the west coast was cancelled by my whip. He told me that I could not go to the west coast because I had to be back Tuesday for the vote. It was impossible to make arrangements to travel there on Sunday, come back Tuesday and then return again.

I'm going to speak on behalf of my colleague, Roger Gaudet. He was absent following the death of a political colleague in his riding, where Roger used to be mayor. It was more important for him to say goodbye to his friend and former colleague for the last time.

I greatly appreciated the experience and I greatly regret the decision of my whip not to allow me to travel to the west coast. If the trip to Atlantic coast was anything to like the trip to the Pacific coast, it must have been wonderful. In Shearwater, I especially appreciated the testimony of a woman physician in the Armed Forces, who is now self-employed in the civilian sector.

I will tell you what happens when a soldier leaves the armed forces and contacts Veterans Affairs in order to receive treatment. When a soldier with problems shows up, physicians compete among themselves. They give the file to his wife and ask her to look out for his old friends. It's the same thing in Quebec, Ontario, everywhere. It's as if society and physicians are frightened when a veteran shows up. They try to pass the buck because they don't know what to do. I don't know if we will be getting the summary of the testimony given by this retired female physician in Shearwater; I don't remember her name. But it is worth listening to it again, if we have time. It was enlightening.

Something else that I greatly appreciated happened in Goose Bay, Labrador. A physician we heard from spoke with such openness and honesty that after the meeting, I asked him if he was worried about losing his job or being transferred. He said no, that he had been there for 16 years, that he liked his job and that no one wanted to replace him. He mentioned, like other people whom we heard from, how common post-traumatic stress disorder is in the armed forces. It's the first time I have heard anyone say such a thing, and that's why I asked him if he was very sure of what he wanted to say.

I will ask my usual question: should recruits be better informed about the possibility that they will suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder or operational stress injuries? The physician told me that training was given, for example, on sexual assaults. I was greatly surprised and pleased to learn that that was possible.

Each year training is given for a certain number of months on sexual assaults which can occur among members of the armed forces. People receive training on various topics that do not necessarily concern fighting, handling weapons or physical fitness. This is general training. The physician we heard from would really like to add a component on post-traumatic stress disorder to this training program. He admitted that a person suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder further to an operation can be just as dangerous, if not more so for his friends than for him or herself. This person could be piloting a helicopter and could all of a sudden decide to kill everyone on board because he is no longer responsible or less responsible for his actions. For a member of the armed forces, this physician was unbelievably frank and honest.

Something else, that Brent referred to as well, really opened my eyes and caused me to think: a mission lasts a minimum of 15 months. Troops require a certain number of months of training in the United States, western Canada, etc. In addition they must spend between six and nine months in a theatre of operations. So, for these people, an operational mission does not last from six to nine months. It is not six to nine months that they spend far away from their family, but rather 15 months or more. That really made me think.

My trip was wonderful and I am eager to go to Petawawa and Valcartier to pursue my observations. I think that the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs is ready to make some interesting recommendations to the armed forces on training and on what happens with recruits from the time they enrol to the time they become veterans, not from the perspective of what I call military training, but as concerns humanitarian training, violence, and so forth. There are already courses offered on the effects of alcohol and drugs. We could add a component on post-traumatic stress. It was the physician in Goose Bay who thought of this, not me, but I think we should study this idea.

I have a question for my friend Alexandre. I took the liberty, on my own personal behalf, of telling the physician in Shearwater—because he was extremely interested in the psychological aspect of the question—that we would forward him the “blues” of the committee for information purposes, concerning the testimony of Ms. Brillon.

Has this been done?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Roger]

Yes, I sent him the blues for all the committee meetings on post-traumatic stress disorder. I sent them to him and to another lady whom we met in Shearwater.