Evidence of meeting #19 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was therapists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Bloc
4 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
I'm here to advocate for my husband as well. I guess I am kind of pushing a product, because I'm sitting here as a military spouse and I would like to have these services. When I tried to find services at certain times when I needed them, when I was posted away from the base, I didn't have them and couldn't find them. I didn't know what they were. So this is my solution.
You're right that it is ideal. But I think that military personnel and their families have special circumstances. I'm sure other people do as well, but this is what I concentrate on.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
What I'm getting at is that, yes, we have to do everything we can for our Canadian Forces members. However, we can't even provide the minimum to the civilian population. Is it possible to strike a balance between the services you are asking to be provided for the military and those for civilians? I'll just come back to what my friend Mr. Valley said, namely that it's very difficult to find professionals in isolated areas. In the remote areas of Abitibi, where I come from, it is extremely difficult to find a doctor, a nurse or a therapist.
4 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
I think they shouldn't be allowed to.... But just because they're relocating, they're being lost. When I moved away from the base, nobody was tracking me. It was my responsibility to seek out treatment, just as it is for any other person. But there should be people who understand what I'm going through and help me connect to those services.
I hope I'm answering your question a little.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
You're on the right track. Ideally, I believe that your spouse should stay in the armed forces all his life, to receive treatment on a military base and to have a military career spanning 25, 30 or 40 years, and that the armed forces not send him home because they cannot deploy him on a mission any more. The forces should look after him, whether he does nothing or does something else. When CF members go back to civilian life, they have to deal with the same problems as everyone else does on a daily basis, namely finding efficient care, therapists, and so on. There is no problem doing this in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver, but if you live in North Bay or in Évain in Abitibi, it's not that easy. We are trying to find ways of helping people who live in outlying areas.
4:05 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
I hope I was able to respond to some of your statement in what I answered for the other gentleman. I'm not really sure what kind of question you would like me to answer, unless you have something more you'd like to say.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I will make some observations, and then you can address them.
4:05 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
Absolutely, yes, more OTs.
One recommendation I would give, if you want to know of something else, is that if you want to have more occupational therapists in the field, I think enlisting them into the military or allowing them to be enlisted is really going to draw out quite a few people who can't afford post-secondary education or a master's education, because the military is going to pay for that and give them a job when they come out. And that's going to provide more health care services.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
How do you see that, then? Could your occupational therapists work with civilians? Or, to the contrary, could the armed forces hire civilian occupational therapists to work with military personnel? Would it be possible to train occupational therapists so that they can treat both civilians and Canadian Forces members, instead of having therapists for each area?
4:05 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
This is where the service manual comes in. This is what I'd like to see developed for people who are servicing veterans, all the different veteran types. They would have access to this. This is the compromise I see, the only other way.
The best way an occupational therapist is going to understand the treatment of military personnel and their families is to be embedded, enlisted, to be part of that, as in the United States and as the U.K. is advocating.
The second best thing is to have other health professionals, not just occupational therapists, understand what Veterans Affairs is offering—the programs, the criteria, what Canadian Forces programs are available and where they are, who the area counsellors are and what their numbers are—and also what the mission is, what the vision is, past and present missions that have been going on, the injuries. Have that in a manual. Have that not on a website, not all these different pieces of paper that Veterans Affairs has, which are excellent. It's all out there; it just needs to be put into context and given to these health professionals who are out there.
So all of a sudden, Sergeant Thompson is sitting up there in rural Manitoba, and his nurse has never had a military client and doesn't understand the concepts of what Veterans Affairs gives. Well, it just so happens that...here's my service manual, and I can look up all the different things that Veterans Affairs has to offer. And it just so happens that at the back of the manual someone has decided to provide me, every year, with up-to-date treatment strategies for these families who are up north or in downtown Winnipeg and what can be done with them. These are evidence-based things that have been proven to work.
So yes, civilian occupational therapists, civilian nurses, civilian social workers can effectively treat military families out in rural....
4:05 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
I hope I answered your question.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
You are a wonderful witness in terms of being able to help me with my time keeping and that of the member. Thank you very much.
Now on to the New Democratic Party, and Mr. Stoffer, for five minutes.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, I have to apologize in advance. I have to leave, right after my question, to go to another meeting.
First of all, I want to thank you, sir, for your service and to thank you, Helen, for your service, for allowing us to have your husband serve our country. It's greatly appreciated.
The concern we have, of course, is that we know, sir, that you can't do your job unless your family is taken care of when you're serving your country overseas. If you have children, if you're a parent who has a son or daughter overseas, if you serve overseas, to know that your family back home is okay enables you to do your job. And I think that goes without saying for most of them who are over there.
The concern we have, of course, is in the Auditor General's report that came out a while ago, and she indicated the concerns about the unfortunate lack, not unwillingness, of medical services within DND. They do a great job with what they have; it's just a question of their not having enough. There are not enough doctors, not enough psychologists, and not enough resources at this time to assist that. Brigadier-General Jaeger, I believe, indicated that as well.
One of the concerns the Auditor General indicated was that the government has a moral obligation to look after the families of military personnel, but not a legal one. Some people were questioning whether there should be a legal one. I'm of an open mind on this one right now. I really don't know what the ramifications of that could be or would be.
In your thought process, obviously you would like to have OTs embedded and in places to keep an eye on the families. Would that imply then some sort of over-and-above moral obligation to families, maybe a possible legal obligation to the families as well?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate where my colleague is going, but to ask a witness who is not a lawyer, who is an occupational therapist, to make a comment on whether the Government of Canada should have a legal obligation on something is....
This is the first time I've ever mentioned the boundaries of questioning here. It's just that it may imperil the witness in that it's more than what they are knowledgeable of.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rob Anders
I think the witness has heard the commentary. I will let her judge her statements accordingly.
4:10 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
If I can be so bold, I have to say that I really don't understand what that all means. I'm sorry, I feel like--
4:10 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
If it means I get more service...but I don't know, I'm sorry.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
That's fine.
One of the concerns, of course, is finding the resources and the personnel in order to do the work you're asking. This committee was in Shearwater recently, and we spoke to Dr. Heather McKinnon. She indicated that a lot of medical personnel would send veterans over to her, because they had indicated to her that they have difficulty dealing with VAC in regard to veterans' issues. She's a former member of the military herself and she has a clear understanding of what they're going through.
I think this is what you're saying, that if people are trained and have a clear understanding—they may even be members of the military, but in an OT circumstance—then they'll have a much clearer understanding of what your husband goes through and then what you go through. I think that's a wonderful recommendation, and we thank you for that.
Have you had an opportunity, then, or would you take an opportunity later—Mr. Cannan could probably arrange this for you—to speak to the defence committee as well? As Madam Hinton often mentions, some of these issues cross both defence and veterans affairs.
So would you take a future opportunity, do you think, to speak to the defence committee as well? I think your wonderful presentation should be shared among as many people as possible.
4:10 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
That would be an amazing opportunity. As long as they're as nice as this panel, then I'd be happy to.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Again, I thank you for your efforts.
Finally, are enough people that you know of interested in taking OT as a career? One concern is finding the people to do this. In your circle of knowledge, do you think there's an appetite for young people to get into this field in order to move that forward? It's one thing to say more OTs; it's another to find them.
4:10 p.m.
Occupational Therapist and military spouse, As an Individual
I think having an opportunity to have your education paid for is definitely a drawing card.
I saw occupational therapists in action. That's why I decided to become an occupational therapist. When people start understanding what occupational therapy is, then I think they will too.
Also, I've applied for a grant to go down to Texas, to the base there, to seek out more information about what occupational therapy could possibly look like in the military. Hopefully I can do that in June, as long as I get the finances to do that. If I can bring that information back, then I'll be able to share that more with people and get them more interested. I hope to write a paper.
Next month I'm also visiting, in Birmingham in the U.K., occupational therapists who are working with veterans there. I want to see what occupational therapy looks like embedded into a military context, and bring that back and share it with people. What does it really look like? Even I don't know what it really looks like. As I mentioned in my opening statements, the Canadian Association of Occupational Therapists is looking to do a needs assessment with DND and the Canadian Forces to find out exactly what we would look like.
So I think people would be interested in occupational therapy that's military-specific. Also, the public sector health care clinicians will have a little bit of an understanding with the service manual that's provided.