Veterans Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2008

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

You apply--

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You're done.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Okay, I'll talk to him later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'd like to follow up. Right now it's a Conservative spot, and unless I see anybody chomping at the bit, I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask--the prerogative of the chair--if I can.

I was very intrigued during some of our previous travelling around the bases, etc. I'm interested in post-traumatic stress disorder and some of the things Monsieur Perron raised in some of our previous committee meetings and whatnot. There was something called “battle mind”, which I guess the U.S. forces refer to with regard to post-traumatic stress disorder particularly. I'm intrigued by that. Could either of you comment about battle mind and put some more meat on the bones of that?

[Ken Miller]

I've heard the term, but I must confess I don't understand the full sense of its meaning in that context. I'm not sure I can add much to your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Mogan.

[Darragh Mogan]

Certainly, preparation for such an engagement requires a certain mental outlook. You must have it or you won't survive in that environment.

When you step back out of that environment into an environment where that's not required, that's one of the real challenges to transition. It affects police forces and it affects others as well. It's a very interesting concept that the U.S. DVA and the U.S. Department of Defense have developed.

I think, Mr. Chair, when you're looking at the U.S. especially, you want to see what detailed studies they've done--and we're aware of them from our research director--on what exactly is involved in the transition to civilian life, what exactly goes through an individual's mind and what they have to go through. Many of them come in when they're 18 and they're not really mature yet, and they leave when they're 38.

It's quite a different experience, for instance, from a wartime veteran, who had a really tough experience but it was only over a three-year period, not over a 30-year period.

So what kind of mentality and psychology does an individual have to adjust to when they make the transition to civilian life?

[Ken Miller]

One of the things we are aware of with many sufferers of PTSD is that as they come back to Canada and are trying to deal with the issues, certain things can be triggers. When those triggers or those buttons get pushed, they can be instantly back in the stress situation that caused it in the first place.

One of the things that can happen--and I've heard sufferers talk about this--is that they react as if they were in that different environment. The reaction may be an appropriate reaction if you're under fire in a war zone, but it can result in very inappropriate behaviour and action if you're on a downtown street in Canada somewhere. So we've certainly heard of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Fair enough. I'm intrigued by battle mind and I'd like to find out more about it.

When we were on a tour of Valcartier, we met a young fellow who was 24, I believe, who had lost the bottom portion of one of his legs. At the time, he was under consideration for $250,000 compensation, but he didn't lose the whole leg, so instead he was being looked at for compensation of $165,000. There was a delay in terms of the decision about what he was going to get and when.

People who had been serving in the military and had been around longer than he had raised the idea that for a young fellow of 24, was it better to allow an option? In other words, $165,000 straight off the cuff for a leg, for the rest of his life type of thing, or some sort of pension system, because he is probably going to live a long life and that might be worth more to him.

What are your thoughts on offering options? I know somebody else raised the question of options as well.

[Darragh Mogan]

Yes, it's fair for a person of that age.

One thing I will say, which we couldn't do beforehand, is that you'd have to have had that pension in your hand before we could have helped that person, before the new veterans charter. Right now, we can provide a rehabilitation program and income support to that individual whether they have a pension or not. So that pension gateway, which could take six to seven months, is not necessary at the moment.

In terms of the option about whether the individual would get the lump sum at age 24 or have a continuing payment, certainly it's a possibility that we could provide that as an annuity. There's really no reason we can't do that. The individual will get financial counselling, and it's available to all of them to determine the best route.

What you don't want to do is have somebody make that kind of decision in the course of a very agonizing psychological and physical event, which an amputation is. If possible, you want to allow time before that kind of decision is made.

We're certainly open to having the lump sum paid out as an annuity, if that makes more sense.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I know what you're getting at, but I think he misinterpreted what you're saying.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

No, I thought it was a fine response. I'll be the judge of that.

When it comes to health records, we have had some talk about digitization or electronic health records, and you mentioned the U.S. system and its Department of Veterans Affairs. Is there some place you would recommend as being one of the best places in the United States to see their digitized or electronic health record system?

[Darragh Mogan]

Well, I think the Walter Reed hospital would be one place, but we can certainly arrange for that through the Veterans Affairs liaison officer and DND here. We can arrange for that to occur if the committee wishes. It would be very good for you to see it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay. I think it would be worthwhile.

Those are all the questions I have for you.

Now we're going to the Liberal Party with Mr. St. Denis for five minutes.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for helping us out.

I'd like to go back over some territory that maybe has already been partially covered.

I think it was in the latter part of 2006 that the minister announced, for lack of a better term, an internal review of health benefits for veterans. Now you'll have to help me. I don't remember if he, in the press release announcing it, mentioned terms of reference or a notional end date. We've been doing our best as a committee--with great respect to the wonderful work of our staff and our researcher, in particular, to help us along the way--but we can't compare with the resources of the department. I just wonder if you could remind us of what the terms of reference were and whether the minister said when he hoped to conclude the internal review. Can we be advised when that's going to be done?

We're operating independently, but obviously we're trying to serve the same people, and there would be some benefit in both our reporting and the department's coming to a conclusion in the nearer term as opposed to the longer term. I'd appreciate your help with that.

[Darragh Mogan]

Sure. I may have mentioned earlier that terms of reference per se were not given out, and there's no reason why they would have been, but what was put out was sort of the diagnostic of what the problems were. Mr. Stoffer and others have referred to complex eligibility. The point is taken. It's very complex, and after 60 years of adding eligibility with all kinds of conditions on it, it gets very hard to navigate. There is a lack of integration and absence of health promotion. Even as people age, exercise, in particular, of any form makes a lot of difference. Promoting a simple activity like that is one of the sorts of problems to solve with a health review.

Ken, maybe you can correct me here, but I don't recall that the minister put a timetable on it. However, obviously because its main target was older veterans, I don't think it was going to be done at a leisurely pace. I can tell you that the review is still ongoing.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

There's no notional deadline as we speak now? You wouldn't be able to say we're hoping to be done by September, for example? Will it be a report? Is it an internal report to the minister only, or is the idea that it would be released to the public, which would allow us, obviously, to have access to it as well? We're always on a learning curve, so I would only say it would help all of us.

[Darragh Mogan]

I guess my sense would be that it is a report to government, and by that I think I mean to cabinet. Certainly, the release of that or all parts of it to the committee or others would be at the minister's discretion, I think, so that's where the question should be directed.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

At that time, if the committee requested, and if the chair was cooperative, as usual, we could ask the minister to come and talk about the report he's received, but we don't know when that's going to be. I suppose we could invite the minister to come and give us an update on the report, because he must get interim benchmark updates.

I do appreciate that instead of having terms of reference, one can work from a list of problems, and here our goal is to try to solve all of or as many of these problems as is reasonable in the circumstances.

If I have a few more moments left, Mr. Chair, I'd like to tag onto something my colleague Mr. Russell raised about our local legions. They acted, when they were first created going back to the First World War, as part of a buddy system, as a way to provide some social support to the traditional veterans. Can you describe the relationship, formal or informal, between the department and the Legion? I know there are a large number of veterans organizations, but the Legion sort of stands out as at least number one, I would say, in all of our ridings when it comes to the commemoration and the remembrance.

Is there any talk of working with the legions? As we always renew Veterans Affairs, or try to, I am sure they are looking for renewal as well. Have they changed their own demographics? Will they invite the next generation of veterans in? What is the relationship, and is there any thought to helping them stay strong or become stronger in the future?

[Darragh Mogan]

I'll offer a comment, and, Ken, you can certainly amplify.

I just read the history of the Legion; it's called Branching Out, The Story of the Royal Canadian Legion. It's a remarkable organization. I've worked in Veterans Affairs for a long time, so I probably should have known this. It was there when veterans needed them after the First World War, after the Second World War, after Korea, and now in terms of reinvention, as it were--or being relevant to the modern veteran--it's been a very, very strong advocate for the new veterans charter and a strong advocate for changes to it as well. I can assure you of that. I'm hearing quite a bit about that. So anything the government can do to enable that organization to carry on, not only in making a contribution to veterans and their families but in making a contribution to their communities, would be laudable.

There are some natural limits because of their advocacy role, but we've directed some of our business to the Royal Canadian Legion, and we've been able to do it so that they maintain their arm's length from us. It's been a great service. With that as a precedent, I don't see why other things couldn't be directed in that area. Maybe they're going to get more involved in the job placement program too.

But sustaining them in all the communities they're now in is going to be a real challenge, given the diminishing number of their founding charter members. It's going to be a real challenge.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Mogan.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

It seems we're out of questions. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your appearance. If you don't mind, I'm just going to move into the next bit of committee business.

We have a couple of things. We have votes that are coming up very shortly. Also, we have a letter from the Speaker of the House that I would like to read to the committee members, and we can briefly discuss it.

The clerk and I talked about it earlier, and I believe you have all had copies distributed of the letter from the Speaker with regard to the motion Mr. Stoffer moved to designate the room.

I'm just going to read the letter from the Speaker.

[An hon. member]

We've already read it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Do people want me to read the letter?

[Some hon. members]

No.