Veterans Affairs Committee on June 10th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is yet another meeting of our Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. Today is a rather special occasion. We have the honour of the presence of the Speaker of the House of Commons.

We're calling this the study for the appellation of Room 112-N of Centre Block, this being the room in which we have held our veterans affairs meetings for quite some time. People are anxious that it be decorated appropriately, and we have moved a motion to that effect.

I assume that Mr. Milliken, the Speaker, has been told that he has 20 minutes, or however much....

Really, sir, in a sense, because of the feudal kingdom nature of this place, you probably have as much time as you want. But I turn the floor, sir, over to you to elucidate for us your rationale in the letter you sent us about our humble request.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Speaker of the House of Commons]

You're too kind, Mr. Chairman.

I want to say what a pleasure it is to appear. I usually only get to appear before the procedure and House affairs committee once a year on estimates, so it's a treat to come and meet with members of this committee on this important matter, and I thank you for the invitation.

I'm here to discuss the proposed renaming of this room, a committee room here in the Centre Block. I have to say that through most of my time the procedure and House affairs committee met in this room, and I wonder whether they didn't want to call it the “Procedure Room”. Anyway, we'll leave it at that. I'll go on with my reasons for answering your question before.

The idea of acknowledging the contribution of veterans to Canadian society by renaming this room as the Veterans Room was first proposed by this committee in its report tabled on April 18, 2007. The idea was discussed at the regular meeting of the House leaders shortly thereafter, and I was asked for my opinion.

I was then and remain now concerned that this form of recognition will detract from the existence of a number of prestigious memorials dedicated to our veterans throughout Centre Block. To be precise, the building already either embodies or contains many different commemorations of Canada's veterans, and I'd like to describe those.

The Centre Block itself, the premier War memorial of Canada. The central column in Confederation Hall is inscribed with the words:

“...the Parliament and people dedicate this building (...) as a memorial of the deeds of their forefathers and of the valour of those Canadians who in the Great War fought for the liberties of Canada (...)

The Peace Tower is so named to honour the thousands of Canadian men and women who sacrificed their lives for the country in World War I. Prime Minister Mackenzie King was keen on giving this important memorial a name that would match its role as a symbol of the principles for which Canada fought in the Great War, as well as the high aspirations of the Canadian people.

There is the Peace Tower carillon, which was commissioned and installed by order of Parliament to commemorate the armistice of 1918 and the sacrifice made by Canada during the First World War.

The Memorial Chamber -- a memorial to service in the First as well as subsequent wars, for those who survived as well as those who died;

There is the sculptural frieze entitled Canada Remembers in the Hall of Honour, commemorating the 50th anniversary of D-Day, intended to address the apparent absence of any commemoration specifically designed to address the Second World War in the Centre Block.

The Nurses' Memorial in the Hall of Honour, designed to mark the contributions and sacrifices of nursing sisters in the First World War;

The Auguste Rodin bust of Marianne, simply entitled La France, was offered in 1921 to Canada by the French Mission of Gratitude to express to the Canadian nation France's deep gratitude for the heroic part played by our army and Canadian people in the Great War.

And lastly, the Baker monument in the Commons foyer, while dedicated to an individual, has always carried with it a more symbolic meaning. At its unveiling, then Prime Minister King described it thus, and I quote:

It speaks not of one member of parliament...but of the fifty or more members of the two Houses who enlisted at the time...and of the eighteen members of Parliament who lost sons in the Great War. But it speaks of more than this. It speaks of Canadians, approximately 600,000 in number who enlisted for service in the Great War, and above all of the more than 60,000 who gave their lives as the supreme sacrifice of this nation in the cause of the World's freedom.

So it's my view that the designation of an ordinary--and perhaps one even might say lacklustre--committee room as a commemoration in recognition of veterans would not only be an inadequate recognition of that contribution, but it might detract, in my view, from the dignified and symbolic memorials that already adorn this building, to the admiration and gratitude of all visitors, who can freely visit these monuments to our Canadian veterans.

So my initial views on this matter, as communicated to the government House leader and the other House leaders, remain unchanged. In order to continue appropriately to honour Canada's veterans, as parliamentarians we should seek not to create a new monument, but perhaps more effectively and meaningfully to convey the history and importance of the commemorations that are already in this building, which, in my view, do truly honour these people who gave their lives or who served in the wars in which Canada has been involved.

I would now be happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

I'm wondering if Ms. O'Brien wishes to add anything to the commentary.

[Audrey O'Brien, Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have nothing to add.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Understood. Fair enough.

Well, we have a list of speakers, and I know I have things I'd like to say, but we'll start off, then, with the Liberal Party of Canada, and Mr. Valley, for seven minutes.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

And we were hoping, Ms. O'Brien, you were going to disagree with the Speaker, but we probably realized that wasn't going to happen.

Thank you very much, Speaker. You've been very eloquent and you've explained it very well, from your point of view.

I've had the good fortune to serve on this committee since it started as a stand-alone committee, and I'm very proud to do so. We've had witness to some amazing testimony and some amazing meetings in this room.

I can't say anything to disagree with many of the things you said, but we want a room where the veterans can come and have their story. You used the word “lacklustre”. To us, and I think probably to you since you've served here for 20 years, it's one of the best committee meeting rooms to meet in. It's close to the chamber; we can be involved here at all times. Of all the ones we've worked in, this is one of the best. We don't necessarily need the classification to adorn this room or to get permission to adorn it with something that's important to veterans, but we feel we want a room where the living ones can come and have something to say about their future.

One of the things we've found through our study and crossing Canada is that one of the biggest concerns the men and women in uniform have right is how they're treated as they leave. We think it would just be a mark of recognition for them that they have their own room, they have their own meeting room, they have a place to come that would carry appropriate artwork, if you will. We think they would take ownership of this and they would want to come before us at a very difficult time.

Many of the witnesses we have had have been very emotional. We're dealing at this time with post-traumatic stress disorder. We want some room or some place that they can take some ownership of and feel comfortable in.

So that was the reason for our original request. And while we understand everything you put in your letter and your comments you just made, some of us here don't know how it would take away from, as an example, the Memorial Chamber to have a room the veterans could recognize as their own, as the living, and come to discuss with parliamentarians their thoughts and their wishes and their hopes for the future.

That was the original drive of that. The mover will have to say what he wants after the original motion, that we tried to do this, but we wanted the opportunity. We know you have a lot of experience. We wanted the opportunity to bring you here and share some of that, and I'm sure my colleagues will have some other things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Speaker, do you wish to respond at all?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'll wait and hear more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We'll move on to Monsieur Perron avec le Bloc québécois, pour sept minutes.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Speaker.

How can one possibly broach this subject without being too hurtful or without baring one's soul?. I think of Ms. Migneault seated where you are and crying her heart out over the problems she must live with every day. I think of Louise Richard who felt comfortable enough to share with us her experiences. I was touched by what she said. I think of the young military members suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and from psychological wounds who shared their stories with us one evening over refreshments at an informal gathering of some thirty people. When I think of all these people, I sincerely believe that this is a worthwhile initiative.

We are not here to look out for the welfare of those veterans who unfortunately are no longer with us. We are here to look out for the welfare of those who are living, Mr. Speaker. I do hope -- and I will be blunt -- that your decision is not based on a desire to reserve this room for the sole use of the whips and leaders committee. I hope that is not the case, Mr. Speaker, otherwise I would be angry.

Mr. Speaker, this room must be renamed the Veterans Room and be decorated accordingly so that young people feel at home here in Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I will now move to the New Democratic Party.

Mr. Stoffer, you have five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Speaker and Madame O'Brien, thank you very much for coming today.

Sir, I fully respect what you've just said. If, in any way, the motion I presented was to detract at all from any other memorials or representations of veterans that were in this chamber, I would have withdrawn it in a heartbeat, or I would never have presented it.

This is the reason I did what I did—and I know Madame Hinton was on the same committee I was. When David Pratt was the chair of SCONDVA—at that time it was a combination—he asked, in a formal request, if Room 362 could be designated the War Room. This discussion at that time had brought up whether it would detract from the Memorial Chamber or anything else.

Really, the premise of it was that when people went into that room to discuss defence or veterans issues, they would see on the walls some significant history relating to the topics that were at hand.

When veterans came in here, all they really saw were four walls, and it was like this very sterile room to them. When we had that one meeting at night here with those veterans, for those of us who were here it was the most emotional meeting we ever had. I've never sat in a meeting for four hours and not said anything, just listened. It was really quite remarkable. The one thing I felt was lacking through the whole meeting was that this room should say something back to them. What we wanted to do, really the premise, was not to make it a memorial room, not to make it a room of comparative significance to the other memorials that are here. We wanted this to be a working room where veterans and their families, or people who are related to veterans, people who have veterans as a major issue in their lives, would come in and know that this room is significant because it displays the concerns veterans are facing, not just our World War veterans but our modern-day veterans as well and those who would come in down the road.

This is really a nice room to work in, as Mr. Valley said. It's handy, it's close, and it's there. It's easy for people to get to, and it's significant because it's in the same facility as the Memorial Chamber and others. But it was meant to be more of a working room, not a memorial room.

I hope I didn't confuse the issue by saying it would be a room of memory. It would be more or less a working room where people could go and feel comfortable. In other areas, in Valcartier where we were before, when we went into the rooms where soldiers were who are going to be leaving the military and going into the veterans affairs, the rooms all had portraits and paintings all over the place that made them feel comfortable that they were in a room of significance.

Really, that's what the premise was. I agree with my colleague that all we really wanted to do was display some artwork and basically say the same thing as we did for the War Room and make a room of significance for people when they came in, so they would know this is a room where other people have come in and spoken before, told their stories.

That's basically the premise of it. I respect and understand your point of view on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Now we'll go to the Conservative Party of Canada. Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'd like to begin by saying there are very few people anywhere on the grounds that I have more respect for than the two witnesses today. I have worked closely with both of you. It was an experience I will never forget, and it was an experience that made me grow as a person. So when I make my first comment, I hope you understand that I do it with all due respect.

I don't think that making this room a veterans room would detract in any way, shape, or form from the other wonderful monuments that you've mentioned. I think you'd be the first to realize that we simply can't meet in any of the places you've mentioned. We can't meet in the Peace Tower; we can't meet in the Memorial Chamber; we can't meet outside the Baker monument. So we need a room in which we can welcome veterans from this country to talk about their problems, talk about their issues, and try to find solutions.

I think if you have paid attention at all to this committee you'd have found out that it's probably the most non-partisan committee in the entire House of Commons. We all have one goal, and that goal is veterans.

We'd like a place to which we can bring veterans. You mentioned the humble surroundings that are here. While I've worked with veterans now for close to six years, I will tell you, if I had to find one word to describe veterans, the word would be “humble”. So I don't think there will be any offence taken by any veteran who comes in here to tell us what his or her issues are and look for solutions from us, because the surroundings are not ornate and gorgeous. It's a humble room that reflects what I consider the epitome of a veteran: they are very humble.

So I would ask you very respectfully to reconsider, because I think it's important and I think it's necessary that we have a place where veterans will feel comfortable, where we can actually put things on the walls that reflect veterans. I'm more than willing to donate some of my own pieces that I've collected over the years.

I think it's important that we do this, and I again respectfully ask you to reconsider your decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mrs. Hinton.

We'll now go back over to the Liberal Party of Canada, to Mr. St. Denis, for five minutes.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Madam Clerk, for being here. I think you're witnessing a full court press.

First of all, for their exceptional arguments in support of naming this room the Veterans Room, I would like to commend my colleagues who have already spoken.

In my opinion, this room is a beautiful room. It's smallish, but it's a beautiful room. After the Salon de la Francophonie, the very ornate one off the Senate foyer, I think this is the prettiest room in the Centre Block.

If I take one word from my three colleagues who've already spoken, you can't really associate faces with most of the committees of the House of Commons, important as they are--finance, transportation, environment. There are constituencies--environmental constituencies, railway constituencies, and so on and so forth--but you really can't associate faces. You certainly can with veterans. We're dealing with faces and people.

As my colleagues have already said, it's not about memorializing, because this is very much a place for the living. It's a functional room. I do not see it as our exclusive preserve; we may be more often here than elsewhere, but we understand that with the limitations of space, we're going to share this room with other committees as the schedules require. That having been said, we could still have a home room, so to speak, with that name, and as Mr. Stoffer has said, it could be decorated appropriately to the theme.

I'm not a founding member of the committee, as are Mr. Valley and some others, but certainly since I've been on this committee we've been dealing more with the human side of our parliamentary business. It's not technical, really. I mean that it's not very technical; it's very much the human piece. I have had the good fortune of sponsoring some days of commemoration and of realizing that the more commemoration we have, the stronger it makes the spirit of commemoration; I think that in the same way, having a place for the living to come and share their stories is very important.

You'll make your decision, and we will certainly accept whatever it is, but we wanted to be sure that no stone was left unturned in our efforts to see this room, which is very much a working room, renamed. There would be hardly any expense involved. I'm sure we could get some very appropriate pieces from the art bank, and we've had offers--for example, Ms. Hinton's offer. We would certainly take the advice of whoever the official decorator is for the House of Commons, should this ever happen, to make sure that the name and decoration are very appropriate to the kinds of people we serve as veterans affairs committee members.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

Now we'll go back over to the Bloc Québécois. Monsieur Gaudet, vous avez cinq minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Speaker, I hope you hadn't made up your mind before coming here. Along with my colleagues, I went to Petawawa to meet with veterans in a room similar to this one. It was truly a moving experience for them. They poured their hearts out to us and some even broke down in tears.

I believe a room specifically dedicated to them would give them hope. Every Member of Parliament is trying to help them. For the Speaker of the House of Commons to give us this room would be a very positive initiative.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You still have some time. Go ahead, Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we all respect your position. However, I am confident that I would have the committee's unanimous support to invite you here to the official opening of the Veterans Room.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right. We go now to the Conservative Party of Canada and Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Also, to Mr. Speaker and Ms. O'Brien, thank you for taking the time to be a part of this committee.

I think what you will find, what we have found, and actually what has been a pleasant part of my short tenure here—and I think you could ask Ms. Guarnieri and the past minister, the present minister, and those before—is that this is one of those committees, as mentioned by Ms. Hinton, that it is always a pleasure to come to.

I very much respect the comment you made, Mr. Speaker, that you're pleased to work with members of the standing committee to ensure that the memorial vocation is both reinforced and protected. And we agree with that.

Many of the things I would want to say have been said, but some reinforcement is never out of order, I hope. I believe that this room, following up on the discussion of the people who have been here, clearly is about the present and the future of our veterans, and of their associates who come in to speak on their behalf, who come to this room and to this committee.

We've all been touched by and have worked hard to make reports that come out of this committee go with unanimous support to the House for adoption.

In regard to history and also when we talk, I believe that when they come in, a room has to have something for them—a bit of history, a bit of acknowledgement in the room--so that when they come in they feel some comfort and that it's not just people around the table to listen to them; it acknowledges a little bit about what they have in their present form when they come in.

I don't think any of us are looking for a room that would be decorated to the extent that it would not be usable. In fact, I think it would give encouragement to some committees that used it, as they could reflect that this is a veterans'.... Indeed, this is about what this country is about. That's why we're able to be in this great country of Canada and sitting in a Parliament. It's not just about those who have given their lives and are reflected in the memorial; this is about some of those folks who are still out there right now.

I think it would have a very positive impact, quite honestly, not just on those who are coming in, but on those who go back out and say to their comrades, “You know, we went to the veterans committee, and not only do the committees and this government and this Parliament, in the past, in the future, and in the present, work together, but actually they reflect the significance of what you've done for us in this country.”

We're not asking a lot. I know the names here that are on the committee, and so I just put this forward. There are other rooms that I've had committee meetings in where there are pictures, where there are some commemorations around, and they don't take away from the committee. I really believe, quite honestly, that this would have a very positive impact on those other committees that would be fortunate enough to be able to use this room in their daily routine.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

We go back to the Liberal Party of Canada and Mr. Valley.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Today, Mr. Speaker, we invited you to Room 112-North. It doesn't inspire an awful lot. We think we can do a lot better if we're bringing people in who are helping us plan our future. With all respect, we would like you to reconsider. Please allow us to give it a better name, because 112-North doesn't inspire an awful lot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

At this stage, sir, I'd like to weigh in, if I may.

A lot of people have made some excellent points.

As for the places you've laid out—the Peace Tower, the D-Day commemoration, the nurses' monument, Marianne by Rodin, and the Baker monument—none of them is a place to meet. When you meet veterans who have post-traumatic stress disorder or who have lost limbs, etc., they're looking, I think, for some place that gives them a sense of comfort and familiarity.

Respectfully, sir, we would do everything possible to tastefully decorate it. I don't think you'd find anything untoward. When we visited Valcartier, they had a suit of armour up. When we visited Petawawa, they had the landscapes they had fought over. It's things of that order, sir.