Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Sir, in our recommendations we have advised that an advisory committee should be set up to assist you. Have you had a chance to have that committee set up? If you have, is there a list of the names of people who are on there, and is that public? If not, when would you think this committee may be struck to assist you in your day-to-day work?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, the committee has not been set up. I've spent a lot of time in the last couple of weeks consulting with individuals, as well as veteran organizations. I have come up with a concept of operations for the advisory committee, and I can say that it reflects very closely the recommendation in the report by this committee. I'm going to reflect all generations of peacekeepers on it, as well as other professions, and make it inclusive.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, Mr. Stoffer, and Mr. Ombudsman.

Now we're over to Mrs. Hinton, with the Conservative Party, for seven minutes.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Good morning, Mr. Ombudsman. It's truly a pleasure to have you here today. I personally like straight talk, and we're certainly getting that from you today. Having listened to you this morning, I also recognize that you are very well grounded. I find that refreshing.

I would like to reiterate that you have an ally in me, as to your priorities, and your priorities are veterans. I am a cheerleader for veterans, not a cheerleader for the department. Although I think the department does a very good job, I've been saying for years that there is room for improvement. I am looking forward to the improvements you're going to make.

I would like to take a minute to do this. There was a comment made at the last meeting regarding the definition of a veteran by my friend Mr. Perron. I want to read into the record what a veteran actually is:

The term “Veteran” includes traditional war service Veterans - those who served in the First World War, the Second World War, and the Korean War - as well as those former members of the Canadian Forces who have completed basic training with the Department of National Defence and have been released from the Forces with an honourable discharge.

These requirements apply equally to those CF members who have served in the Reserves, Special Duty Areas and on domestic duty. This recognizes the potential risk that all CF members are exposed to when they swear the Oath of Allegiance and don a Canadian uniform.

In conferring “Veteran recognition” to former CF members, there is agreement between Veterans Affairs Canada and DND that the designation of “Veteran” is solely for “commemorative” and “public recognition” purposes. Access to VAC benefits and services are based on need or other defined eligibility and not recognition as a “Veteran”. In other words, Veteran status, in and of itself, does not carry with it the right to any benefits.

That's the end of my statement.

Given the number of people you are going to be responsible for, I'm sure you have your work cut out for you. Once again, I'd like to say that you've displayed the kind of integrity and the qualifications that make me feel very comfortable with you in this position. Thank you for that.

It is stated on your website that you can “refuse to deal with a request for review, except if the request was made by the Minister”. Under what circumstances would you refuse to deal with such a request?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, with all due respect, that's a highly speculative question. In the first instance, I will flatly refuse to get drawn into political debates; that's in my background and upbringing. My place is with the veterans and to champion their causes. The only situation where I might refuse is where I have to compromise my own principles, which I'm not prepared to do. But once again, that's very speculative, and I can't imagine a situation arising to that effect.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Great. That's wonderful to hear. I appreciate your answer. It came right off your website, so that's the reason I asked.

Do you foresee yourself working closely with the DND ombudsman?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, the DND ombudsman has actually been a tremendous help to me in my teething weeks at the job. He has a considerable amount of experience in many issues that affect veterans. One of my expectations coming into the job was that I would be the Veteran Affairs counterpart to the DND ombudsman. Certainly we have started off on a collaborative venture. In order to offer our veterans a seamless transition from uniform into the civilian world, I fully expect that will certainly continue. I'm confident that we'll have a stronger bond, professionally.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

The advisory committee was raised by Mr. Stoffer earlier. In your opinion, what qualifications would the members of the advisory committee have to possess, and is there an application process for those who want to be a part of that committee?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, once again, I've formulated a philosophy, although the exact mechanics are yet to be determined. At the risk of being premature, and I don't want to come across like I'm thinking out loud, but my intention is to have representatives from each of the generations of operations. I would omit World War I, because in fact that's Mr. Babcock and I just visited him in Spokane, and it would be a little unfair to ask him to have a representative.

I am referring to representatives from World War II, Korea, and UN operations in a generic sense, not wanting to get caught in the rhetoric regarding what peacekeeping is. It would include NATO operations and other operations in support of Canadian policy; personnel who have served on operations in support of recognized ally operations; and members of the RCMP veterans community. I would also seek to have serving members of the Canadian Forces and the RCMP, and Veterans Affairs should have a voice. At this point I would like to see a representative from the legal profession as well as the medical profession. Although I don't have firm criteria or terms of reference for selection, certainly an understanding of the veteran situation by virtue of having served in one of these wars is important. The person representing that generation would have to be familiar with the problems of the veteran. I would add that I would also accept a family member from any one of those categories to represent the plight of the veteran. It would be a highly individual process, and I would see that being the ombudsman's responsibility.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I look forward to your first uncensored report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Fair enough.

That completes our first round. Now we move on to what's known as the second round, which is five minutes for each.

We will go over to the Liberal Party. Ms. Guarnieri.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First I would like to welcome you to the committee, which I'm sure is going to be a regular home for you over the next year. I hope you are made to feel very welcome.

I have to say that we watched the selection of the ombudsman very closely after the government broke its election promise by appointing two defeated Conservative MPs to VRAB in a return to brazen patronage. I'm especially happy to see that a former military officer with the field experience you have is looking after the interest of veterans. That is very welcome news for us.

Let me first focus on the mandate, the role, and the budget you have been provided with. Originally we had been told by the defence ombudsman that a veterans ombudsman could be done with a budget of as little as $250,000 a year. At the time I think we all recognized that this figure would be a fraction of the true cost given what's spent on VRAB and the Bureau of Pensions Advocates. I understand you have a budget right now of approximately $5 million. Perhaps you could tell us how you feel the budget number fits with expected demands and how it compares to the budget and services provided by the defence ombudsman. Have you had the chance to compare that?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, in all honesty, I have spent the last two weeks focused on gaining an understanding of veterans issues, as well as defining in my mind exactly what an ombudsman means in terms of research. I have not had an opportunity to go line item by line through the budget. It would be premature for me to comment at this point.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Perhaps at a later date you could give us some insight on how you are faring, whether you feel your budget should be expanded and whether it's sufficient for your mandate.

Following the same vein of comparing the roles and defining the boundaries of the veterans ombudsman relative to the defence ombudsman, there seems to be a definite divide when a soldier or veteran must take his complaint to the defence ombudsman unless he or she has filed an application to become a client of Veterans Affairs. Do you foresee any circumstances where veterans don't fall in that category but they ought to be able to file a complaint with you? Have you had a chance to give that some thought?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I've been doing a lot of thinking, not necessarily directly in that respect. Suffice it to say that because of the relationship I'm developing with the defence ombudsman, and because we want to be an inclusive organization and have that human touch--and certainly retired Canadian Forces personnel are indeed veterans--I'm confident that whatever bureaucratic impediments there might be, individuals will not slip through the cracks. Between Monsieur Côté and I, the best interests of recently retired service members will certainly be tended to.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Your answer is refreshing. We'll certainly be looking to see whether you have the latitude to fill the voids and the gaps.

On the issue of role, I wonder if you could tell me where your position fits within the public service as compared to the ombudsman for National Defence. Often the intended influence of an office is indicated by the relative seniority of the office-holder. Is your position equivalent to a DM, an ADM, a DG? How does it compare with the ombudsman for National Defence, for instance?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't surprised at the designation of the office, knowing the level the DND ombudsman and having read the report and the recommendations. In fact, the veterans ombudsman is the equivalent of an EX-2 or a DG.

My family is not going to starve. I took the job for the job itself, much like I've done my entire career. But having said that, it has created certain impediments, the knock-on effect of the more junior staff employed within the office of the ombudsman. Also, some of the delegations internally are being viewed as delegations that would be at the DG level rather than the level I would expect of the ombudsman.

Moreover, I can foresee, perhaps with my successor, not as much with me, where the people working at the ADM and DM level might view the position as being more the working level of the DG. I say that for my successor, because I fully intend to exercise the latitude the office warrants.

Finally, my concern is with the feelings of the veterans. I think they would have the same expectations that I would have coming into the job, that their ombudsman would be of no lesser stature than the ombudsman for the serving members.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Well, certainly, there is cause for concern here--

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

No, no. Albina--

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

--because the status of your position relative--

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Albina, no.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I'm making a final comment, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You're at six minutes and 30 seconds.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I think this is an important point, though, Chair.