Veterans Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2009

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Could you answer that, Cyndi?

[Cyndi Muise]

I think the stigma is individualized. I really believe, just from the work experience we're doing now, that the soldiers are coming forward sooner. I know for me, like Laryssa's husband, it was eight years before I was diagnosed with PTSD. I think the soldiers now are more educated. As Mariane said, they get their briefings before they go overseas, they get briefings there, and they do third-location decompression before they come home. There's post-screening, there's follow-up screening, there are all sorts of things.

I can't speak specifically about numbers or statistics or anything like that, but just from my experience, the younger guys are coming in--in droves, if I may say--and I'm still reaching out to the veterans of the 1990s as well. They take longer to come in. These Afghanistan vets, the younger vets, are coming to me sooner.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I would also add to this regarding the stigma. I believe the last time I appeared before this committee I was asked what was the biggest challenge I saw, and my answer was the stigma. There's still quite a bit of it. Today, it's not going to be the same answer. It's not going to be that, because I think there's been a lot of effort put into developing processes and programs to try to beat it.

Will we ever beat it completely? Again, I have to say no. We are a microcosm of Canadian society, and stigma exists in Canadian society. It will continue to exist in the Canadian Forces. I would invite the committee to ask as witnesses the joint speakers bureau, which I talked about. They are developing a national campaign on education to fight the stigma. This may be of interest to you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Major, and thank you, Mr. Kerr.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you for that, because I would like to follow through. I'm glad to hear we're making some progress in that area.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Now to Madam Foote for seven minutes.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you.

Like my colleagues, I want to thank you so much for being here.

As I listened to Cyndi and Laryssa talk about their experiences, it just reconfirms for me the thinking.... Every time I hear of a soldier, male or female, and watch what is happening, it just boggles my mind as to how you deal with it. You have the experience of war and then you come back and deal with those experiences. My heart goes out to each and every soldier who goes to fight. I listened to Laryssa's story, and I feel for you, and for Cyndi. The fact that it would take so long--so long--to find help, the help you needed to move on with your lives....

I'm really interested in the whole idea of peer counselling. It's one thing, I guess, to have the experience and to turn to those who have gone through it, but I'm just wondering, what's the extent of the training that peer counsellors have? I'm reading some of the things it says here, like a focus on boundaries and self-care, conflict resolution, crisis intervention, suicide, and helping networks. Does every peer counsellor receive the same amount of training, or does it vary depending on the experience of the peer counsellor?

[Kathy Darte]

No. All peer counsellors--peer support workers, as we call them, or peer support coordinators--receive the same amount of training. When they initially start as workers in the program, they get two weeks of fairly intensive training. The training--

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

How long?

[Kathy Darte]

Two weeks, and it's consecutive.

It focuses on peer support, providing safe peer support and what that's all about. It also focuses on services that are provided by organizations, such as my own, Veterans Affairs. They have presentations from many folks in Veterans Affairs about the services we provide. They have presentations from National Defence on the services that National Defence provides, and also from the community.

Over the course of the two weeks, they learn about the main resources they need to work in collaboration and cooperation with and to reach out to, because they will have people and families coming to them with specific issues and concerns and they need to know who they can refer them to, or how to assist them in getting to those referrals. So the training is fairly extensive.

The volunteers in the program--Cyndi referenced volunteers a while back--also receive training. The training they receive is, again, peer support training. And that training is provided by mental health professionals from the National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries at Ste. Anne's.

We put a lot of focus in this program on training, on updates, on refreshers, and on professional development. We meet in conference a couple of times a year, and we put an emphasis on training. It's training they have identified the need for themselves, from the work they're doing in their own local communities.

Yes, they are well trained. It's not only a one-shot training when you start to work in the program.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Are these positions that they apply for, or do you reach out and look for those who have experience? Or are the positions advertised and they apply for them?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

They're both, actually.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Obviously, from some of our soldiers who return, there's anger. There's an anger component there.

I listened to Laryssa's story. Is there any component of that training that deals with, for example, a peer counsellor encountering someone who's really angry and how to deal with that?

[Kathy Darte]

That's very much part of the peer support training they receive--crisis intervention, conflict resolution, and how to develop healthy working relationships. That's part of what they receive.

We know from experience that a lot of people, when they initially come forward to access services...it has been a long time for them. They've been struggling and trying to cope on their own and they are very angry. They feel as though organizations, communities, even families, have let them down. That's how they feel. So yes, they do come to us with a lot of anger.

The people they come to, the coordinators, need to know how to deal with that anger and not to take it upon themselves. They try to get the individuals to understand where they are. Because they were there themselves at one time, they can re-frame it for them and try to get that out of the way so they can get on the road to recovery.

I want to focus on the stigma there too. This program is about reducing stigma.

You've heard today from both Cyndi and Laryssa. They give their personal stories; their stories are public. When individuals see where Laryssa and Cyndi have been and where they are today, they become beacons of hope for others. For those who are angry and struggling with operational stress injury, they become examples they can aspire to--they're now working for the Government of Canada and have good jobs. So they become that kind of beacon of hope that says, “I was once where you are today, and look where I am now. But I didn't simply jump from this to this.”

The road to recovery can be long sometimes, and sometimes it's not very easy. But we--

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

It's unfortunate that it took eight years for Cyndi and ten years for Laryssa. Why is that? Why would it take so long? Were there services not available or did you not know about them?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That will have to be the last question.

You can go ahead and answer that.

[Cyndi Muise]

For me, I know the reason it took so long was the stigma at the time, and there was no OSISS. If it weren't for OSISS, I wouldn't be here. I can't speak for everybody else, but for me, I would not be here.

OSISS is really a driving force. It's not unlike any aid group or a cancer group where everybody is there because we've all experienced similar things. We don't focus on the injury as much as the symptoms. We focus on what's going on for us. We don't care where you were or what you did. We can all relate to the PTSD or the OSI.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam.

Now we'll go to Mr. Lobb for five minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thanks to all of you for attending today. It's been a pleasure to hear about your experiences and your knowledge of the topic.

I would like to say to Ms. Underhill that I'm not too far from Meaford. I'll be attending a fundraiser on the twenty-second of this month in Meaford for our troops, and there is a reception in Owen Sound at the armoury on the thirtieth. I'll be at that as well, so we'll probably cross paths a couple of times in the near future.

Our study, really, is to examine some of the benefits our veterans receive and to compare them to those of other countries within the G-8. What I really want to know from your perspective is whether you compare this particular service that you provide to our veterans to what other countries provide. Where do we stack up when we take a look at that?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

The members of the OSISS program have done a number of international presentations. We actually did a NATO presentation in 2006. I was a member of a working group on operational stress with Land Staff Headquarters before I became involved in OSISS.

Kathy and I have received numerous requests for information from colleagues across the world. Some U.K. individuals on the veterans affairs side have contacted us. We have always been extremely willing to share any information, including our training manual, our documentation, and our policies, with anyone. With the U.S., we've done that quite a bit. We've done it with the U.K.

Two years ago, in June, I did attend an international conference and I managed to connect with two other countries, Sweden and the Netherlands, which have a peer support program of some sort. We've been exchanging information. Actually, we've managed to get a full symposium in June on the different models of peer support across different countries. So yes, we are sharing.

The OSISS program was built without a blueprint. There was no blueprint of what this could look like. There was the AA model, which did not necessarily fit the needs of the Canadian Forces, so Kathy, Stéphane, and the members of the management team at the time really worked from scratch to develop the model we have.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I can appreciate what you're saying. In another committee we're studying poverty in Canada, and we're recognizing that mental health is a huge component of that issue, and it's quite likely 30 years behind the times. So I know that the work you are doing is really groundbreaking in some respects.

Another thing I want to talk about is the decompression component, particularly with our new veterans when they've done a tour in Afghanistan. One of my very good friends has just finished a second tour in Afghanistan. He texted me a short while ago and said how much he enjoyed his decompression in Cyprus.

I just wonder if you can tell the committee about that and about how that compares to other G-8 nations.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I must say that I'm not able to compare the decompression model to what other G-8 countries have. I'm sorry.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Perhaps you could just give us some of the ideas or the theory behind decompression.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

As far as I know, there is not a lot of research that was ever conducted on the decompression model. Way back in 2002, which I think was the very first time this model was used with individuals coming back from Afghanistan, it was done in Guam at the time. There was one study being quoted, which looked at the difference between U.K. soldiers coming back either by plane or by boat. Those coming back by boat--it took longer--seemed to show better adaptation, I would say. I will not cite any mental health statistics at this point.

There has been very little research. It was mostly a leadership initiative, and it's also logic. If you are in combat and you pack your bag and 24 hours later you're back in your front room with the children running around you, it can be very quick in terms of travel. It is good common sense to have a time to rest--rest is a big one--and to recover.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I know this is probably not going to be a quick answer. Given the fact that we really are breaking ground worldwide here with what we're doing, where do you see the next five years for OSISS? Where do you see the program heading?