Veterans Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2009

[Keith Hillier]

No. With due respect, I would ask you to direct that question to the ombudsman.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Well, if DVA helps the ombudsman with the employees, then DVA would know that answer, wouldn't it?

[Keith Hillier]

In the human resource files, in some cases people may or may not have indicated whether they had military service, but it would be inappropriate for me to access the files and provide information about employees.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

That's understandable.

I'm going to be the devil's advocate now. I always thought that an ombudsman was like a watchdog in a department. We used to have Bruce Hood, who was the airline commissioner for complaints to the airlines. We had the DND ombudsman, and we've had all kinds of ombudsmen—banking ombudsmen and all kinds of people. When you ask the general public, you find the perception that they're a watchdog in a department.

I'm just throwing this out here. It is a pretty sweet deal when DVA has an ombudsman, who is supposed to keep an eye on the department to see if there are any problems or anomalies, to see what recommendations he can offer so that the department can improve its services. But when there are people from DVA employed within the veterans ombudsman office, some people could say that there's an awfully close link there, that there's not much independence between the two. There is a risk that you could handcuff the ombudsman and his people. For example, they might be reluctant to issue a hard-hitting report or something of that nature. Is that perception real or false?

[Keith Hillier]

I don't know, because I haven't seen that. But let me respond in this way. First, staffing in the Government of Canada is based on the merit principle, and the watchdog for that is the Public Service Commission. Any time a job is open, all employees of the public service, within certain constraints such as location or experience, have an opportunity to apply. To say to employees of the department that they couldn't apply for a job in the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman would actually be a violation of their rights under the Public Service Employment Act.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Andrews.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The hot transfer that you referred to a couple of times, do you keep statistics on how many come from the ombudsman's office? If so, do you have them available?

[Keith Hillier]

I don't know the number offhand. Some of these happen routinely. They're on a call and they switch the call over to an agent in a call centre. So I don't have a precise number. I know the 375 that were more formally transferred. In order to improve the service, we're moving to a system of having designated people. Rather than just hand it off to one of several people in a call centre and office, we're designating people to do that. So we'll have a better handle on what some of the calls are. With regard to the others, the 375 I referred to, which came over as complaints, hot transfers are taking place. They're very informal. They just refer the call to a call centre.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

I'm quite sure the ombudsman uses them as part of his statistics, so it would be interesting to compare the two.

[Keith Hillier]

I'll see what's available. I might be able to give the committee some idea of what they are, but it would be in an order of magnitude as opposed to a precise number.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Okay. It would be interesting to hear.

The Veterans Review and Appeal Board is not part of the ombudsman's mandate, but according to his statistics last week he has a number of claims that relate to that board. To put those statistics in perspective, what exactly are they asking? Are they specific claims or items on how cases were handled, which is not in his mandate? Should they be in his mandate? Should he have the power to go to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board? If he doesn't have that power, why is he logging so many inquiries on that? Is it the nature of the review and appeal board, which I think is in his mandate?

[Keith Hillier]

I won't respond to the first part of the question . My comments are really restricted to what's in the order in council. Whether the ombudsman should be going beyond that is not a matter for me to comment on.

On the Veterans Review and Appeal Board itself, the order in council is very clear that he can't interfere in the process or overturn it. He could conceivably receive some complaints from clients that the lawyer who represented them from BPA didn't act in the manner they expected, or any number of other issues. They might complain that the hearing wasn't scheduled at a time that was convenient for them—I'm sort of making this up as I'm going along—which really wouldn't't affect the integrity of the decision. As noted in the order in council, there's very little discretion there.

As the ombudsman moves forward with his communication strategy and people get a better understanding, I'm sure some clients will feel that the ombudsman has the authority to overturn a decision, which isn't the case, of course. You will get clients who will complain, and it's their right to complain. We live in a democracy, and the reason we're in the democracy is because we have traditional veterans and modern-day veterans who fought and continue to fight for the principle of democracy. Having somebody exercising their rights is a good thing.

As the minister said many times in this forum and other places, you can never do too much for a veteran. At the end of the day, even if you've been very injured and your country is paying you the maximum amount allowed by the law and the regulations, how can you put a price tag on someone whose life, sad to say, has been greatly changed? So you can never do too much for a veteran.

Sometimes veterans will go to the ombudsman because they would like to have more benefits than what can be provided, whether through the Veterans Review and Appeal Board or other areas. But at the end of the day, you can't do too much for a veteran.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Andrews and Mr. Hillier.

I'd like to officially welcome Mrs. Davidson to the committee today. She would like to have five minutes for questions.

Go ahead, Mrs. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hillier, for the information you've been giving us here today.

This is not my committee, but I'm very pleased to be here. I have several veterans in my family, including my father, so veterans issues are extremely important to me. Over the years members of my family and I have had several opportunities to interact with Veterans Affairs, and most of them have been very positive. On the whole, a good job is being done.

I think it's a sign of caring and thoughtfulness that the Veterans Bill of Rights has been implemented, as well as the ombudsman for veterans. I'm very glad to see both of those things in place. As we've said before here today, the ombudsman is a fairly new position. It's something we are working through, and I think everybody has the best interests of the veterans at heart. So I'm quite sure we will get there.

The information I have indicates that the ombudsman can undertake a review of an issue on his own initiative, at the request of the minister, or at the request of a veteran, a client. Are there any limitations on what the ombudsman can deal with, or is he free to deal with anything a client or anyone else asks him to?

[Keith Hillier]

Mr. Chair, if I may, in responding to the honourable member I might note that my father also was a veteran. He served in the Second World War. I, being a Newfoundlander, note that my father served with the Royal Navy for a number of years and did a number of tours in some very interesting places around the world. So in responding to this and the ombudsman, I'm truly pleased to have a job where I can actually help veterans, both modern-day veterans and traditional veterans, because it's almost like helping my father.

Having said that, I will say with regard to the ombudsman that the ombudsman can pursue any item that is within the mandate the ombudsman was given through the order in council. What he can do is very clear. Whether it comes from the minister, a client, his own initiative, or his staff, the reality is that he has to operate in that zone that's been defined.

For example, with regard to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board and pension decisions, irrespective of where the request may come from, he cannot go in and overturn a decision or go into areas where basically he is not permitted to go. Other than that, within those confines, the ombudsman can talk to anyone that he may want to talk to in the department and he can see any documentation, again, with the exceptions that are noted in the order in council.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Further to the issue of homelessness, I think that's perhaps what the most focus has been on recently. The notes indicate, as some of my colleagues have said, that you, departmental officials, have performed outreach with these organizations. Have you identified homeless veterans? If you have, how is that done? Is it done on a proactive basis or a reporting basis? If so, who reports? How is that handled?

[Keith Hillier]

We don't have an identifier in our computer base that says a person is homeless. We do have clients who we feel are at a higher risk because they may be shown as “of no fixed address”, so they could be at risk of being homeless or maybe not.

Those clients would be managed through a case manager who would do the necessary follow-up. So there are people we know who may be at risk. For example, everybody leaving the Canadian Forces today gets a transition interview, and on the basis of the transition interview we may identify some people who may be at risk of any number of things, including homelessness, depending on some of the information we get. So it is proactive. It's about making sure people are aware of what we can do, coming back to the OSISS peer support coordinators. I can tell you about a couple of cases in point. I made reference to an individual who walked into the Vancouver district office and said he needed help. That's an easy one to find.

Also, when you look at certain parts of the country, the numbers of reservists are not.... DND, because of the tempo of operation, is using more and more reservists on its missions overseas, and when the reservists come back, they go back into their communities. We do a transition interview and what have you, but others who are regular forces members stay at the base or stay with their group.

The point I'm making here is that to try to reach out to these people, we're trying a number of pilots, and one of the things we're doing is we're writing.... British Columbia has a really high percentage of reservists, particularly in the lower mainland, so we're doing some things there a little bit differently. When I was in B.C., I talked to the gentleman who is in charge of the reservists, and we're working at trying to connect to them in two ways. First, we send out follow-up letters to them: we know you are a reservist and that you served in Afghanistan--and by the way, we want to remind you that if you have any needs, we are here, this is our phone number, call us if you need anything.

Also we're working through our network. There are some things we're doing in Ontario. We made contact with all the reserve units to ask whether they know of people who may be at risk, because if a soldier comes back from a mission and is no longer going to the parades every weekend, it could be an indication he just doesn't want to do that any more or it could indicate he is withdrawing. And maybe when you look into it you find that not only is he not going to parades, you find he quit his job, and there are complaints at social services vis-à-vis some interactions with the family.

So no one solution fits all, and that's why I say you have to come at it in a multi-faceted way. You've got to come at it on the ground and you've got to have your people on the ground making the connections you need, because a directive from me in headquarters is probably not going to be the most effective way to get the results we need.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Hillier, Madam Davidson.

We've had one complete rotation now of every member in the committee, and of course Mr. Stoffer twice. We have a small piece of business, so we'll need to move to that unless somebody has an overwhelming question they want to get in. I've got a couple just to confirm some information.

One question?

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I have a brief question. Earlier, you mentioned the homeless. That struck me. Do you have any studies on the homeless, veterans living on the streets, information about their age groups, their salary, their physical and mental health and so on? Is there any documentation on that? Is there a higher rate of homelessness among veterans than other groups of people?

[Keith Hillier]

We do not have any studies of that kind.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You have nothing like that. Fine. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you.

I have three questions. Hopefully, they'll be quick.

Do you have the number and can you give the committee the number of veterans you have who have no fixed address? Could we know that?

[Keith Hillier]

I don't, off the top of my head.