Veterans Affairs Committee on Sept. 17th, 2009

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you.

I'll turn it over to my colleague, who has a pressing question.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sullivan, and your staff for all the work you do. It's great to see.

One of your focuses this year is youth. That leads me to my question.

In my travels this summer, I found out something that was kind of disturbing. Remembrance Day is not a federal statutory holiday across the country. In my province, it is a statutory holiday. I just assumed that it was national, that across the entire country it was a statutory holiday.

I was speaking to my cousin in Toronto. She runs a day care, and she says that the schools are actually open on Remembrance Day. I find that a bit bizarre. In my province, everything is shut down.

This leads me to ask, what's the history behind this? Has the department pushed to make it a statutory holiday? Is there something in the works? Can you give me some history behind that? And how could we as a committee or as a Parliament perhaps push that issue a little more?

This is mainly for the youth; you have to take the time to pause. I remember the video we saw when we were in Charlottetown. That whole video sort of stuck with me, with the person shopping on that day. It sort of tied everything together. I was amazed by it.

[Derek Sullivan]

Yes, actually, I can give you some of the history on that.

Most provinces in Canada do have November 11 as a statutory holiday. There are, however, some provinces that do not, Ontario being one of them. It is provincial jurisdiction in that case.

Ontario did have November 11 as a statutory holiday until sometime in the late 1980s or early 1990s. They made a change and it is no longer a statutory holiday. But there is a debate about whether it should be, particularly in relation to schools.

There are some, including some veterans, who believe it's better to have students in school, learning about Canadian military history and about remembrance, on November 11. They feel it's better to have students involved in remembrance activities at school on November 11 as opposed to their being at home and perhaps not involved.

There is another body of thinking that says they should be out of school, participating in the community events that are very prominent in every single community across Canada. They should be taking their part with other involved citizens.

That perspective, of course, goes beyond students. It's for adults as well. If it's not a statutory holiday, then fewer adult Canadians will participate in the events. They'll be at work.

So there is a push and a pull, each with, I think, some reasoned arguments behind whether it should or should not be a statutory holiday. Veterans Affairs has not taken a position one way or the other.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Fair enough. I can understand both views. It makes some sense, but on the other hand, it makes no sense. I guess it's something for us to discuss and debate.

I have a couple of other questions.

The torch relay, if I'm not mistaken, will be ongoing during that week. On Remembrance Day itself--I may be wrong about this--is it in Newfoundland?

[Derek Sullivan]

Yes, it is.

If memory serves, on November 10 the torch will be in Iqaluit. On November 11 it will be in Goose Bay, Labrador.

The torch is also going through many Canadian Forces bases. They are making a specific point of having remembrance as part of the torch relay on November 11.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

My second question is in regard to the wreaths for parliamentarians. I'm very much appreciative of that particular initiative. I know I used it very well on Remembrance Day. The only concern I have with it in my particular area is that, like many ridings, I have 20 war memorials. There are 20 wreath-layings on that one day. They all expect there to be a Government of Canada wreath laid by someone, a representative of the town, myself or someone else. Sometimes you guys limit the number of wreaths that some parliamentarians can have.

I just want to put that in your thought process. As I said, I have over 20 wreaths to lay. My colleague Judy Foote has many more than that. It's a big deal. The legions in particular will call you up, and they expect you to show up or have someone show up with that wreath and lay it. So I want to thank you and give you that one little suggestion that you might keep under consideration.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. André, you have the floor.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with my colleague, Mr. Gaudet.

Good morning, Mr. Sullivan. Thank you for your presentation. I looked at your documentation, and it was very interesting.

From what I saw, you developed some promotional tools tailored to elementary schools and high schools. You also refer to the Veterans Affairs Canada Web site. Can people order materials in large quantities? If not, do they have to print out the teacher's guide and educational materials? In addition, how do you go about promoting the week in schools? What is the school participation rate?

In terms of mobilizing people for Remembrance Day events, some people have told me that they are organizing activities in their ridings in cooperation with municipalities and legions. Unfortunately, however, they are having trouble getting in contact with veterans in their communities. Sometimes, the legions do not have all the information.

Do you have any suggestions for reaching more veterans? Are there any ways to help these people reach more veterans? According to them, there are only 10 or 15 people at some ceremonies. I am certain that there are veterans in some regions who do not know that a ceremony is being held. How can we reach more of them? Do you have any tools that could help?

[Derek Sullivan]

Thank you for your comments. I will start with your third question.

Within our department, there are certain restrictions on promotion, more specifically, as it relates to veterans' privacy. We cannot give out veterans' names or details to organizations wanting that information. However, we do make efforts to encourage veterans to get involved in associations that are interested in them.

It's important for veterans organizations and community groups to reach out in their communities, through their own networks, to veterans. We work with many community groups and with veterans to have them become involved.

It's really important to remember that there are also younger veterans. It's not just the Second World War veterans but the modern-day veterans. We need to encourage them to become involved in remembrance, not as spectators but as those to whom tribute is being paid. As we have more success with that—and that is growing—we won't find communities that have a small number of veterans. In fact, that number will be growing.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

If someone in a given community wanted to organize an activity to commemorate the events of September 11 or to honour veterans, could that person go through your department to promote the event, for confidentiality reasons? Do you offer such a service? Is it possible to connect people in this way?

[Derek Sullivan]

We have employees in a few places in Canada. For example, in the National Capital Region, we have lists of veterans who took part in various campaigns and battles. When there is an event to commemorate the Italian campaign or D-Day, for example, we send out invitations to the veterans who took part in those campaigns. That is also the practice in cities where we have offices and lists of veterans.And we often encourage veterans to get in touch with their colleagues and encourage them to participate.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

But you do not send out information on a given event to all veterans in Quebec and Canada. That is not a practice you have in place as it is likely impossible.

[Derek Sullivan]

There is not a list of veterans in Canada. There is no list that exists of all veterans in Canada. There has never been a business purpose for compiling one. In the government, we don't compile a list unless there is a specific business purpose for it; you have to have reasons for collecting data, under the Privacy Act.

We have lists of veterans who have applied for services and who are receiving benefits from the department. We have lists of veterans who have indicated to us that they would like to be involved in ceremonies, and we contact them at every occasion. We have a distribution list of about 250,000 for Salute!, which reaches many veterans across the country. There are approximately 750,000 or 800,000 veterans in the country today. So we reach as many as we can in as many ways as we can. We use our website to promote events in communities across the country, and we use as many ways as possible to encourage people to go to our website and become aware of events in their communities.

You had asked whether teachers can order the materials in printed form or whether they have to download them and print them. The materials are available in print form in bulk, and they can order them by telephone, on our website, or by contacting our offices, but by telephone and through our website are the main ways they order them. They can also download them from the website if they prefer, but the easier way, with the size and format, is to order from us. We have an ordering system that gets the material to them very quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. André.

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

Now we go to the NDP, with Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

Welcome, Mr. Stoffer

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to our new clerk as well.

Thank you very much, Derek, for this. I greatly appreciate it.

I have a couple of short questions for you. Concerning the materials you send out to the schools, do you send specific materials out to first nations communities and to the far north and the Inuit in their specific languages? I'm thinking of the Canadian Rangers in the Nunavut area, as well as some isolated first nations reserves throughout Canada. That's the first question.

Again, as our chair said and as you said, it's a civic responsibility to remember, but I've noticed one thing that we, as a nation, haven't done very well--and that includes me as well--and that is remembrance of the Boer War. There's nothing in this paper about the Boer War and nothing in here. I wonder why that is. I'm certainly not blaming anyone for that, but it was a significant event in Canadian history and we don't seem to be remembering the anniversary dates of that specific one.

Also, you talk here about Royal Canadian Legion Remembrance Day ceremonies. Does that include the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada Association?

And for my last question, the minister was quite straightforward when he was with us last time when I asked him about when Mr. Babcock, who is now 109, passes away. What plans would the federal government or the Department of Veterans Affairs have to recognize the World War I...not just Mr. Babcock, but all those people who served during that generation? Because once he leaves--which hopefully is not for a long time--that generation is lost. What would Canada be doing to recognize that significant event in our history?

And I thank you very much for all the work you do.

[Derek Sullivan]

Thank you.

Regarding the aboriginal languages, no, we do not have materials in languages other than English and French. At this stage, all of our material, everything, is available, of course, in English and French, but no, we do not have materials on remembrance in aboriginal languages.

On the Boer War, you're absolutely correct, there isn't anything in the Veterans' Week learning materials on the South African war. We do have material on our website, including our Heroes Remember feature, which has interview clips with veterans of many eras, up to and including those serving in Afghanistan today. We even have a few audio interview clips of veterans from the South African war on that feature. There is other information on the South African war, but it has not received the same scale of treatment as the First World War or the Second World War at this point. However, I will take a look at what we have and make sure that we're providing the kind of recognition of those who served in Canada's first war, really, as a nation.

As well, you asked whether those materials are sent to the Army, Navy, and Air Force Veterans in Canada association. Yes, all branches of all veterans organizations are on the mailing list. So they all receive it.

Lastly, you had asked about the plans to mark the passing of Canada's last known First World War veteran. Mr. Babcock, as far as anyone is aware, is one of only three remaining First World War veterans alive in the world. There is a plan developed in consultation with veterans organizations as far back as when we started this, in late 2005 or early 2006, when there was a handful of First World War veterans left. The approach will be to mark it as the end of an era, the last living connection to a generation of Canadians who answered the call. At Mr. Babcock's request, it will not include a state funeral for Mr. Babcock. Both he and the second and third last First World War veterans were very clear on their intentions and what their request was. So the plan will be to honour all the generation of Canadians and Newfoundlanders--they were not part of Canada at the time--who served during the First World War. There is a comprehensive plan for doing that.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Stoffer, you have a couple of seconds left.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

All right, sir. I can pass my time on to my colleague, Mr. Kerr, if you wish.

It won't happen very often, but it's the new coalition.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I think it's appropriate that we just call that the rotation for the NDP and then go to the Conservative Party of Canada, with Mr. Kerr, for seven minutes.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

And to think, Mr. Chair, I was going to compliment him on his shirt this morning, too.

Where was I?

First, Mr. Sullivan, it's good to see you again. You were correct in Charlottetown when you said we had only really touched on the topics. You wished you had all day to get into it. Certainly there's a lot of material there. Thank you for all you do.

We'll go back and forth on the education, too, and other things, but in your objectives, you stated that one of the things you are trying to do is increase the understanding of Veterans Affairs' services and benefits. Could you expand on how you're doing that? That's always a topic here, how we reach out to veterans and how we get the information around to Canadians. It continues to be a frustration, I know, so perhaps you could enlighten us on that.

[Derek Sullivan]

There are many ways that those responsible for the benefits and services programs promote them. I'll talk specifically about how we, in our remembrance activities, try to make sure that people are aware.

When we are organizing remembrance activities, whether here or, more importantly, across the country, we ensure that we have information available, whether it's brochures or people who can answer questions about services and benefits. When we participate in other people's activities, when we attend teachers' conferences, we not only have remembrance materials but information on the programs and services of Veterans Affairs as well, and we have our communications people, who are able to answer questions on how Canadians can get access to those services of the department. It's not unusual for a teacher to be the son or daughter of a veteran, or the husband or wife of a modern-day veteran. We use every opportunity that we have in remembrance to also make sure that people are aware of the services available to support veterans and their families.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I appreciate that. It is still frustrating to know that some veterans don't want to be recognized and don't want to be known publicly, so we have to keep it up.

On messaging, it was always a challenge, and I'm glad to hear of all the initiatives with youth. It is extremely important. You ask, “How Will You Remember?” I remember when I taught many years ago, often the youth response was, how could they remember when they were not alive? When you ask, “How Will You Remember?”, it is the remembrance of as opposed to remembering.

I am wondering, on the awareness side with youth, if you are seeing a strengthening of that relationship.

[Derek Sullivan]

We are seeing a tremendous strengthening. I often refer to the years between the 1960s and the early 1990s as the dark years for remembrance. It was almost taboo in Canada to talk about remembrance. You didn't hear much about it in schools. I didn't hear much about Canada's military history when I was in school. During part of that period it was, in a way, an offshoot of what was happening with our neighbours to the south in the Vietnam era. During the 1990s things started to turn around dramatically in the country at large, but also specifically with young people and in schools. We are finding that the requests for learning materials are growing, and participation by youth at events across the country is growing as well.

I remember a few years ago, during the Year of the Veteran, the CBC, along with other media outlets, was working with us on some of our early planning, and they told us that their national broadcast of the Remembrance Day ceremony had tripled in audience over the previous 10 years, from 1995 to 2005. They also do a crowd estimate, along with the RCMP, here in Ottawa in particular, and the in-person attendance and participation had also tripled over that 10-year period.

We're seeing many more young people involved, and many more young people are taking their own roles as leaders in remembrance. We are seeing many more activities led by young people in schools and in communities across the country. We see that through our Canada Remembers staff in the five cities across the country where they are located. They are getting requests for support and assistance, and sometimes ideas on what they can do. Youth groups, Scouts, are very prominent, but there are many other groups across the country. We are definitely seeing an increase in youth participation.