Evidence of meeting #30 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was care.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wilf Edmond  Dominion President, Royal Canadian Legion
Pierre Allard  Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Welcome to the 30th meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

This morning we have with us Wilf Edmond and Pierre Allard from the Royal Canadian Legion. We are focusing on a review of the new veterans charter and they'll be giving testimony this morning in that regard.

Mr. Edmond, since both of you have opening remarks I will leave it to you as to who will go first and second. I know that Mr. Allard is very familiar with the question rotation of the committee.

However, Mr. Stoffer has asked for 30 seconds prior to that, so perhaps you will give me a little bit of patience.

Mr. Stoffer.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have an invitation for everybody on the committee. If you wish to attend, Minister Thompson is dropping the puck with a Mr. Hibberd, a World War II veteran who served on the armed forces team that won the gold medal in 1948. He's coming to our office on Tuesday at 1:30 p.m. The minister will be there and I've invited you as well.

I have that jersey and Mr. Hibberd is going to sign it for me, so I thought that if you wanted to meet him and watch the signing of the jersey, it would be kind of a cool thing. That's at 1:30 p.m. on Tuesday, if you wish to be there.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Do you have an original 1948 Olympics jersey?

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

It's a replica in honour of the 60th anniversary last year. Shearwater air base made a whole bunch of them and Mr. Hibberd said he'd be more than happy to sign this one. There are only five members of the team left. He said he'd sign it, so it will be kind of cool. That will be in room 240 in the Confederation Building.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Without further ado, then, Mr. Edmond and Mr. Allard, go ahead at your own convenience.

9:05 a.m.

Wilf Edmond Dominion President, Royal Canadian Legion

Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, as Dominion President of the Royal Canadian Legion, it's a pleasure to appear today at your committee to discuss issues related to the new veterans charter.

Firstly, we'd like to commend you for your excellent report “Resetting the Bar”, released in May 2008, and “Shared Experiences: Comparison of Veterans Services Offered by Members of the Commonwealth and the G8”, released in June 2009.

Your support of veterans and their families is noteworthy. It's obvious that you care, and there should be no doubt that the Legion also cares for veterans and families. We care in a number of ways, including through the provision of representation and advocacy services through our service bureau at no cost to applicants whether or not they are Legion members. We care through our benevolent assistance, our housing initiatives, our youth programs, and through various “Support our Troops” programs.

At this point I would like to turn to Pierre Allard, the Dominion Command service bureau director. Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Pierre Allard Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Mr. Chairman, members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, I am very pleased to be here today.

You have been briefed by Veterans Affairs Canada officials on the new veterans charter program and on the continuum of care in the context of veterans health care programs. We are somewhat surprised that these briefings did not include any reference to the recommendations in your committee's report, “Resetting the Bar for Veterans Health Care”. Nevertheless, allow us to comment on what you were told by VAC officials. We fully recognize that they also care for veterans but ultimately must operate “within their authorities”, as you are told repeatedly.

You were told that VAC has adopted a continuum of care with an integrated, seamless system of needs-based services along a life course. You were not told that VAC has not adopted recommendation 1 of your report “Resetting the Bar”, which was asking for a “redesigned veterans health care program” for “all surviving war service veterans from the Second World War and the Korean War” and all “Canadian Forces veterans”. The modern veterans still do not have access to long-term care and that is a gap in the new veterans charter.

You were not told that, according to recommendation 3 in your report, access would be based “on need rather than on the basis of veterans status”. Even though one may be tempted to think that the language used by the VAC officials could suggest that a needs-based approach has been adopted for the three components of health services—treatment benefits, long-term care, and the veterans independence program—the reality is that very complex criteria grids are still in place.

I invite you to look at our brief. You will see an example of what I'm talking about. There are four pages of Veterans Affairs Canada policy. If you turn to page 2 of those four pages, you will note that there are some indicators for the tables at pages 3 and 4. Those indicators mean that there's a simple symbology attached to the criteria grids.

For example, E means that you're eligible; E with a number means that the client is eligible if a qualifier applies; E with a semicolon between the qualifiers indicates that each qualifier stands alone; and E+ means that both qualifiers must be met. When you turn to pages 3 and 4, you will see what the criteria grid looks like. I would suggest that if somebody is calling NCCN, the national client contact network, and asking for information about his or her eligibility, the analyst who's answering the phone had better be well versed in this type of information or the wrong information might be provided.

Note that we are not advocating a complete elimination of eligibility criteria, but surely these criteria grids could be streamlined to three or four basic criteria.

Similarly, we are not advocating access to long-term care for all modern veterans. That might be unaffordable. However, access could be provided to modern veterans who served in special duty areas or special duty operations such as Afghanistan, and to medically released Canadian Forces personnel.

You were told that VAC must eliminate gaps between VIP--the veterans independence program--and long-term care. But VIP is not a panacea. Veterans may indeed choose to stay at home for longer periods. They may ultimately elect to go into community facilities at a time when they are truly frail. You were not told that their caregivers may suffer burnout; ultimately, they will be unable to look after their spouses as they themselves may require access to long-term care. As well, the longer one delays transition into long-term care, the bigger the needs will be. In some cases, institutionalization is the only choice.

You have been told by Veterans Affairs Canada that where there are vacancies in contract facilities all efforts are made to open up these beds to community clients. You were not told by Veterans Affairs that couples continue to be separated at the end of life, including some of these caregivers who have suffered burnout, as VAC contract beds are made available to community placements. No real priority is assigned to spouses in a standardized fashion across the country.

You were told by VAC that they now speak the language of the Gerontological Advisory Council report, “Keeping the Promise”. Even though you were told they have adopted the lingo, you were not told that they have not eliminated the barriers and have not implemented appropriate screening tools to identify high-needs veterans. Keep in mind its complex eligibility criteria grid.

You were told about joint Veterans Affairs Canada-Canadian Forces integrated support teams to look after the critically wounded soldiers returning from Afghanistan. This is indeed an excellent initiative, championed by the Chief of Military Personnel in the Canadian Forces, which will pay great dividends, and we applaud that. However, it is unfortunate that this concept was not implemented sooner.

Another reality is that the majority of these modern veterans have not yet transitioned to veteran status and are still under the care of the Canadian Forces. Even though these wounded warriors may have benefited from some elements of the new veterans charter, they have not yet tapped the full resources of the new veterans charter in the context of the family of programs available to them.

Furthermore, some may be eligible for a permanent impairment allowance but cannot collect this allowance until they retire, which seems grossly unfair, especially for the critically wounded. More challenging is that those who have been critically wounded in Afghanistan may not be provided with adequate financial resources until the current earnings loss benefits, ELB, criteria are resolved.

As for looking after high-needs veterans, you were not told that Veterans Affairs Canada is facing challenges in case management. VAC's internal evaluation of a pilot project of the Halifax rehabilitation case management reveals significant problems with “case plans not conforming to the principles of case management”. Problems have been identified with respect to “fragmented directional guidance, unclear boundaries for case management, confusion surrounding roles and responsibilities...inappropriate approach to case management...and a focus on benefit delivery rather than case management”. Those are not my words. Those are the words of Veterans Affairs Canada.

More than anecdotally, this description of the problems in the Halifax district appears to be consistent across the country.

You were told that adding eligibility for Canadian Forces veterans for long-term care is a political decision that will have to be considered in time, while, over time, our plan is to specialize the care and services offered in contract beds we now have for the older veterans. In that context, it may be that larger contract facilities are the only ones that have the capacity to look after high-needs residents, including critically wounded warriors returning from Afghanistan.

You were not told that if decisions are not made in a timely fashion to increase eligibility for modern veterans, the significant investment made by VAC in some specialized contract facilities might be at risk. In that context, you may wish to look more closely at what is happening at Ste. Anne's.

For example, after the transition to provincial authorities, will veterans still have access to the same number of priority access beds as exists currently, relying on normal attrition to eventually reduce demand, as has been done in all the larger priority access bed facilities in the country? What will happen to the day program currently serving the needs of veterans who are not yet ready for institutionalization? What will happen to the national centre for post-traumatic stress that is housed at Ste. Anne's? These are important questions.

You were told by VAC officials that the government made a commitment to invest $900 million into the new veterans charter programs over the first five years of the program. You were not told that by VAC's own accounting they have exaggerated the financial resources required, which seems to be a trend in all VAC program forecasts.

You were told by VAC officials that it may not be adequate to “ask a family of four to survive on 75 per cent of a private's salary for two years while a private is going through rehabilitation”, but that it is “better than what there was pre-charter”. You were not told that the reality, pre- and post-charter, is that the private would in most instances, if medically released, really be receiving the same two years of benefits, not from Veterans Affairs, but from SISIP, while any disability pension payments would be offset from SISIP benefits, an unfair policy that persists to this day.

You were not told that after SISIP rehabilitation, the private could be eligible, under the Pension Act, for a non-taxable disability pension for life, which would be greater than his guaranteed 75% salary taxable at the time of release under the earnings loss benefits. Keep in mind that a Pension Act payment is a payment, a disbursement, while an earnings loss benefit is a “guarantee of”, which has deductions attached. You were not told that, under the Pension Act, monthly disability pensions, non-taxable, would be the same whether you were a private or a colonel.

Since the new veterans charter received royal assent in May 2005 and was implemented in April 2006, VAC feels that the expectations created by VAC with central agencies upon program approval were “highly unrealistic”, and again, those are their words. We would suggest that these were not expectations; rather, they were a commitment that under a living charter concept the issue of lump-sum disability awards versus disability pensions would be reviewed within two years of program implementation and gaps would be addressed.

These gaps are known. They exist in the following areas: need for improved family support services; need for provision of adequate financial security; and need for improved rehabilitation services. All these needs are further amplified in the New Veterans Charter Advisory Group report that was released on October 1.

Unfortunately, the reality is that we now have two classes of modern disabled soldiers, most of whom are still serving in the Canadian Forces, while the CF appears reluctant to release them until we are out of Afghanistan or at least until the Canadian Forces has resolved the issues of return to work, accommodation, and/or universality of service. In practice, this means that still-serving wounded soldiers are receiving either disability awards post-2006 or disability pensions pre-2006, and that frustration among the ranks is growing to a boiling point as they are comparing the financial benefits in both programs.

It is becoming obvious that some are less than enamoured with the new veterans charter benefits. It is also becoming evident that critically wounded veterans may not be provided adequate financial security under the new veterans charter.

The Legion cares for those who serve and those who have served. They and their families need our support. A living charter has to be more than words. If the required urgent corrective actions and improvements to the new veterans charter are not implemented, we will come to the logical conclusion that the foundations of the new veterans charter are built on sand.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Mr. Allard.

Now we'll go to our questions. The Liberal Party is first.

Mr. Oliphant, you have seven minutes.

October 29th, 2009 / 9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Allard and Mr. Edmond.

I'm new to this role and new to this committee.

Perhaps I shouldn't have been, but I have been completely impressed with your presentation. I found it very helpful and thorough, and it's a very good briefing for me as a new critic, so I thank you for the time and the care you've taken on that. Also, thank you for the work you do every day, not just when you come to our committee.

I have several questions, starting with a question on principle and then going to some programs. Perhaps it's my naïveté, but it has been my assumption that the actual foundations of the new veterans charter, which talk about moving from dependence to independence and about trying to move to rehabilitation instead of constant support, are generally accepted as good principles upon which to build, and that the program of Veterans Affairs Canada perhaps has failed in living out the new charter.

But I'm also hearing in your comments that perhaps the new charter has failed. I just want to take a little bit of time on that first question, that principal question about whether the basic foundations of the new charter are there, those basic foundations that I think are noble and were all done in the right spirit of the absolutely appropriate care that we need to give to veterans. I want to start with that first question on the principle, not the programs.

9:20 a.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

I agree with you that the principle is well founded. We should aim to have our citizens socially engaged and contributing to society. The programs in the new veterans charter were designed to do that, with the best of intentions, as far as I can tell. I must admit that I was there from the beginning, and I was a champion of the new veterans charter, both in 2005 and in 2006.

Having said that, I will note that the new charter, before it had come to fruition, by the time it was analyzed, and by the time it was implemented, unfortunately did not anticipate some of the critical injuries that are happening in Afghanistan. In that context, that is the flaw with the new veterans charter.

Try as you might, it is quite possible that somebody who suffers from a critical brain injury and somebody who has lost two legs and an arm cannot be made well and cannot be reintegrated into society. Unfortunately, the objectives of the program, which would be to make somebody well and to encourage him to return to work, won't work in that context.

So what you're looking at is, let's say, a private who's 21 years old and who has not yet been released, or who has been released, and who will be given a disability award. Some of that disability award might be used to renew his house, to make his house livable, habitable, because he is very disabled. Then, all he is guaranteed is 75% of his release salary, which is taxable. Well, I would suggest that's below the poverty line for that private.

By the way, that guarantee of 75% of income is not disbursements; it is simply a guarantee. If he is receiving superannuation or CPP benefits, the only thing that Veterans Affairs is doing under the extended earnings loss benefit is providing a top-up, which is taxable. Under the Pension Act, this same individual—and let's assume he has a family and two young kids, which is possible today—would be receiving a monthly pension for life, not taxable, and it would extend beyond age 65. Currently, under the new veterans charter, this extended earnings loss benefit stops at age 65, when probably his needs are the greatest.

Looking at the life course, which is what the new veterans charter was trying to do, it somehow failed miserably to provide benefits post-65. This is a flaw that we indicated right from the beginning. Does that answer your question?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

It does. It seems that the context question was meant to be built into the new charter as a living charter, but perhaps the programs have been failing to keep up with—

9:20 a.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

Yes, with what has happened in theatre and what has happened in reality. Again, in looking at it, we can anticipate that this modern veteran with a brain injury will be required at one time in his life to go into long-term care, probably before the age of 65 because of the after-effects of his disabilities. And here we are: modern soldiers do not have access to long-term care.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

That's right, and that's—

9:20 a.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

Unless they meet very, very specific criteria here, which almost exclude them.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I have so many questions in my head, but I have one on the role of the Legion. Obviously, the context has changed for the Legion as well. It would seem to me that Veterans Affairs Canada could have a partnership with the Legion in helping the Legion to adapt to this new environment as well. As for whether there is an ask from the Legion itself with respect to this.... I'm just moving off the charter for a moment. But within the charter, I think support of groups that facilitate the spirit of the charter is also necessary.

Is there something that the Legion needs to say to us about its needs? It's a huge adaptation that you as well are needing to go through in this changed context. Is there some way the government could be helping you on that?

9:25 a.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

I could almost turn to our president to answer this one, but I might just suggest off the bat that we are very aware that we must transform ourselves. We're trying to do that, but we want to do it without government support.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Okay.

I met with three different Legion groups last week and all of them are utterly committed to doing that. They didn't add that last part, so I just wanted to check with you, because they seemed to be looking at something else.

9:25 a.m.

Dominion President, Royal Canadian Legion

Wilf Edmond

We are separate from the government. We depend on our membership for our finances and support, and we certainly want to be able to be objective when we have to be--

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Oh, you are.

9:25 a.m.

Dominion President, Royal Canadian Legion

Wilf Edmond

--and to ensure that when we promise support to our veterans we can certainly feel that our membership is behind us.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

How's my time?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you for saying that. The answer? That was it.

Monsieur André pour sept minutes.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Good morning, Mr. Edmond and Mr. Allard. I met Mr. Edmond in Normandy, where we had a very pleasant time. I am pleased to see him back here.

I find your comments on the new Veteran Charter to be very interesting and important. We can certainly always improve the services provided to veterans.

In your presentation, you said that the modern veterans do not always have access to long-term care. Could you explain to me why this is the case? We are referring to veterans who have participated in recent conflicts, particularly in the war in Afghanistan. Could you tell me how you work with both the public and private health networks in order to provide long-term care to people who have lost their independence. I am wondering, perhaps a bit naively, why veterans would not have access to the long-term care provided in public institutions. Is it a matter of benefits?

9:25 a.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

As for your first question, the document states:3.1 General eligibility for health care programs is derived by virtue of being recognized: a) As having been granted a pension from Veterans Affairs Canada;

We are talking about a pension here, not a lump sum payment. Some modern soldiers may meet the criteria, but only in a very limited number of cases. The majority of them will not be eligible. As for long-term care, we want access to be standardized across the country. Currently, in Canada, the maximum amount that veterans have to pay to receive long-term care are the accommodations and meal costs. This is a fixed amount of approximately $824 per month. That is what veterans have to pay. Every province contributes to long-term care, and the Department of Veterans Affairs pays the difference. We are asking for the modern veteran also to have access to a program that is standardized across the country and that would cover accommodation and meal costs. Right now, he does not have access.

We are in contact with long-term care networks. Furthermore, if traditional veterans call us and seek our assistance in facilitating their admission to long-term care facilities, we intervene at two levels: we contact the Community Care Access Centres and Veterans Affairs Canada. Does that answer your question?

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Yes, that answers my question. So that means that the Department of Veterans Affairs does not provide compensation to an individual coming back from Afghanistan, for example, and who requires long-term care because of a disability resulting from a terrible accident.