Evidence of meeting #32 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was years.
A recording is available from Parliament.
November 5th, 2009 / 9:40 a.m.
Retired Constable, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
It's $719.
Retired Constable, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I do get a pension from DVA for a hearing problem I have. I've had that pension for 10 years. That didn't come into account here because I was getting it before I went to pension.
Military and Royal Canadian Mounted Police Veteran, As an Individual
If I may, I can explain it to you this way. In the 1980s—1980 to 1983—I was financial counsellor for the Maritime Command. During those years I was lecturing in financial counselling: CSBs, RRSPs, orderly payment of debts, bankruptcy, insolvency, and all aspects. I was lecturing at all rank levels, looking after more than 10,000 personnel in the Maritime Command.
I was trained in financial counselling, and never at any point in time did they ever advise me of the clawback of the CPP program. So all the people I was lecturing didn't know. Furthermore, I was assisting them. I had created a program to teach them how to prepare themselves for retirement. At the end of the day, I was saying their military pension would be this amount of money, their Canada Pension would be this amount of money, their old age pension would be this amount of money, and nowhere in time did I tell them they would receive a benefit reduction. I didn't find out until age 65. Maritime Command has one of the largest retirement plans in Canada, and I didn't find out myself until age 65 that my pension was going to be reduced.
With regard to the amounts, they vary a lot because we're talking about a lot of rank levels, we're talking about time and service, and so on. So it's difficult to give you figures for exactly how much a person loses.
Retired Constable, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
May I have just another moment here for me?
Retired Constable, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
If I had known I was going to fall into this situation, why would I have retired? I could have stayed in the RCMP and done a job working all day shifts. When I retired I was basically working shift work. I could have gone to a desk job or another RCMP job where I got paid the salary I was getting.
If I had known what I know today, what I would have done, in my own mind, is stay in the RCMP. I would have stayed there for 35 years, sat at a desk eight hours a day, had weekends off, had no overtime or call-outs in the middle of the night being confronted with people with guns and whatever other situations you can get into with stopping cars and all the rest of it. I could have relaxed. I could have gone into a position, worked a day-shift job, Monday to Friday 8:00 to 4:00, and gone home at the end of the day. I had 32 years; I could have done that for three or four years if I'd wanted to. Why not? Why would I go and give up the salary I was making to come to this? I don't know why I'd do that. I wouldn't do that; somebody else might. I have a value for money and what it can do for me. I don't know if anybody else has, but I do. When I get reductions like this and somebody's taking $719 out of my pocket because somebody else wrote laws and let them do it, I don't look upon that as being favourable to me, nor would anybody else in my situation.
You're asking me if I knew I was going to go to this. If I had thought I was going to be in the position I'm in today, I'd be making $85,000 a year today, basically doing very little for the RCMP compared to what I was doing, which was investigating crime and going from job to job trying to put out fires with very little manpower the way we were doing it. Why would I go to this, when I could have gone to an eight-hour-a-day job in the RCMP making $85,000 a year? To come and sit in front of a committee, to me, is like begging for money. I don't have to beg you people for money. This should be mine.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
None of this was explained, Mr. O'Handley, when you were considering going on your disability pension: that there would be this reduction, that you had alternatives of staying on in your employment or going on disability.
Retired Constable, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
No, and I'll give you the reason I didn't know about the reduction. When I got the RCMP disability pension, I got a pension from the RCMP at 64% plus I got the Great-West Life pension. There was no deduction in that. Therefore, I didn't know the rest of the rules maybe. Do you know what I mean? If you're asking me if I knew them, no. I looked at what they were going to give me and said yes, I'd take it. I didn't realize that it was going to come into a deduction. I never realized it until a couple of weeks ago when I got this letter.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Now we'll go on to the Bloc Québécois, Monsieur André, pour sept minutes, s'il vous plaît.
Bloc
Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Good morning, everyone. Thank you for your excellent presentation.
My questions are for you, Mr. Mallette. If I understand correctly, your group is not affected by Bill C-201. You have pointed to certain elements, in particular the fact that corrections officers experience significant events in terms of stress, for example when an officer goes to get someone who has committed suicide in prison. There are various situations relating to stress. The suicide rate is, in fact, relatively high among corrections officers. There is also occupational burnout, and all sorts of very difficult situations that can resemble situations experienced by other occupational groups, such as the members of the Canadian Forces and members of the RCMP.
Could you explain why you are not affected by this bill, to start with, and why you should be?
National President, Syndicat des agents correctionnels du Canada, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Thank you for the question.
First, it will always be difficult for corrections officers, because their occupation is not well known. I don't know how many 7-year-olds or 8- or 9-year-olds might tell their parents they would like to be corrections officers. On the other hand, the job we do puts us into all sorts of situations where we have to make decisions quickly. We work with firearms. We have to control situations that can become extremely serious. Sometimes, we have to go into cells to get an inmate who has committed suicide. We have to work with contaminated blood. We have to work with criminal gangs, inmates who are involved in crime both outside and inside the institutions. There are also threats. There are circumstances that mean that this occupation deserves as much attention as police services or the military.
We too are asking why we are excluded from Bill C-201. We should have been included from the outset. That is sort of what we came here to say this morning. Don't forget us, we exist and we want to be included in this bill because we think that could solve some problems. You undoubtedly know that corrections officers have been trying to improve their pension plan since 2002. We are trying to solve some problems. In fact, a corrections officer is used up after 25 years inside institutions. It is an occupation that is extremely difficult, physically and mentally. Often, inmates go to prison when they are young, but we get on in years, and physical intervention becomes difficult to tolerate.
We really believe that these steps should allow us to be able to retire earlier. In fact, our pension plan allows us to leave after 25 years' service. So we can leave at 50, after 25 years' service. We can leave, but there is no fairness. A public servant retires after a 35-year career, and while we can leave earlier, the money isn't there.
Bill C-201, in fact, prevents a reduction for people who are 65. We think that when someone retires at 50, that is when they most need to have the benefit of this. We are here as participants and we want to tell you not to forget us because we exist and we have been calling for this since 2002. We would like to be heard and to improve the pension plan for our correctional officer members.
Bloc
Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
We are aware of the psychological and physical consequences associated with your occupation.
Do you have statistics that you could submit to the committee on the percentage of people who suffer post-traumatic stress, the suicide rate among corrections officers, the number of corrections officers who have been victims of violence? Are there studies on this?
National President, Syndicat des agents correctionnels du Canada, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Yes. We have done studies of the physical and mental health of our corrections officers. We can send you all the necessary documents. Some research has been done on this subject. In fact, in the document we submitted today, Dr. Beltrami talks about these conditions.
Bloc
Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Have you done comparisons, for example with the RCMP, to determine whether there are as many people among yours dealing with mental or physical problems?
National President, Syndicat des agents correctionnels du Canada, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Yes. In the document we distributed today, there are comparisons with Vietnam War veterans, in terms of post-traumatic stress syndrome. Our numbers are higher. Don't forget that our officers make a career of this and that exposes them to all sorts of incidents.
In our heads, we always have images of events that have happened. In those cases, we tell ourselves that having to experience a thing like that makes no sense. I remember that at the Port-Cartier Institution a corrections officer was taken hostage. He was handcuffed to an inmate. The other inmates mistreated that inmate; they cut of pieces of his flesh and threw them at the corrections officer. That kind of situation happens in the institutions. I am not saying it happens every day, but these are things our members have to deal with.
National President, Syndicat des agents correctionnels du Canada, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Our members often have to deal with these kinds of situations.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
No, you're finished, sir.
Thank you, Mr. Mallette.
Mr. White, did you have a comment as well?