Veterans Affairs Committee on March 18th, 2010

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

I would like to ask Ms. Tining to respond since you are asking a more technical question. Ms. Tining may be in a position to clarify that.

[Suzanne Tining, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

The way we account for expenditures in the department is by program. That's what you see in the main estimates and the supplementaries, so it is very difficult to read through the estimates the question you're asking. We could attempt to give you an estimate of what that would be, but we have to recognize that many of the veterans who are serving or have served in Afghanistan are not yet our clients.

As the minister said, the National Defence way of doing things is that even if the member is injured, they will keep the member within the Canadian Forces for three years. That's their modus operandi. If we take into account the mental health, the post-traumatic stress, or the operational stress injuries that could arise, or that the member could realize as an issue, only a few years after he's left the Canadian Forces, I would say that we haven't fully seen the impact of the Afghanistan returnees in the department.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I guess my hope would be that the department starts doing that--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Oliphant--

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

--to add it to the costs of the mission.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Oliphant, you're way over your time, sorry.

Thank you very much.

Now on to Monsieur André pour cinq minutes.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good morning, Minister. Congratulations on your appointment.

I have been a member of this Committee for two years now, and I must say that the former Minister, although he was very good, did have some trouble in French.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Well, I have the same problem in the opposite direction.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Well, I am still pleased to see that you speak both languages, at least partly. It is important, when the Minister goes to France or to other places where people speak French, that he or she be able to use both languages. That is very much to your credit, Minister.

I would like to come back to Mr. Oliphant's question. I am currently in touch with Ms. Matteau with respect to Mr. Magnan. Some young people returning from Afghanistan or very difficult missions have been traumatized or seen things that are not necessarily very pleasant. Everyone does not have the same ability to move on from such events. It depends on each individual's sensitivity. When they come back from Afghanistan, they are entitled to a lump-sum payment. However, a young soldier who is only 22, 23 or 24 years of age is likely to end up spending the entire lump-sum amount. After that, it is often the family that has to take responsibility for his reintegration and financial support. I guess that is the case with Ms. Matteau.

I don't know whether you or Ms. Tining can answer my question. I would like to know whether the new Veterans Charter, compared to the old one, provides for higher or lower amounts for this type of payment. Overall, is it less expensive to pay out lump-sum amounts, compared to a monthly allowance?

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

I will try to answer your question, and I will also provide clarification with respect to our “new” veterans. This will probably be of interest to you.

We have 4,200 veterans who served in Afghanistan. The number of veterans in receipt of a disability award directly connected to their service in Afghanistan—in other words, who were wounded—is 2,200, or one in every two veterans. The number of veterans receiving a disability benefit for psychiatric disorders connected to their service in Afghanistan—particularly for post-traumatic stress syndrome—is 513—in other words, one in eight. The number of veterans who sustain serious injuries in Afghanistan—in other words, with more than 70% injuries—is 200, or one in twenty.

In seeking information as to whether it was better before, if there were more benefits previously, and that sort of thing, the focus must be on rehabilitation and the transition to civilian life. We will not be any further ahead if we give someone money and he stays at home, rather than being able to continue to grow as part of society. That's why two factors are critical. If we were only to pay a lump sum to these individuals—the maximum payment is about $276,000—and then leave them to fend for themselves, we would be making a mistake; but that is not the case. They receive 75% of their salary until they are rehabilitated. If that takes 15 years, they will continue to receive that amount for 15 years. The same applies if it takes five years. That is the goal.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I don't know whether the Deputy Minister can answer my question.

Was the amount of the award under the former Charter higher or lower than under the new Charter? I imagine that it would be easy to get these figures—for example, for 2005 and 2010—accounting for inflation and the indexation rate.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

This week, we even sent the Committee some real-life examples.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Yes, we received all of that.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

You can see the difference in the amounts.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Minister, that does not answer my question. I would like to receive an answer.

[Suzanne Tining]

We are obviously comparing monthly pension amounts to lump-sum payments.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

For example, amounts paid in the form of an award in 2005, prior to the Charter, and amounts in 2010.

[Suzanne Tining]

Yes. The pension amount under the previous system is higher than with the lump-sum payments, because of the number of clients. I think that's relatively simple. There was a decrease in the amounts under the former system because of demographic data. Indeed, the older clients are, unfortunately, no longer with us. The trend is towards lower monthly pension amounts under the former system and increased lump-sum payments to “new” veterans.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

It is difficult to ascertain that based on the number of veterans. Could you provide those figures to the Committee?

[Suzanne Tining]

Yes, absolutely.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In closing, I would like to ask the Minister to provide data on Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. André.

We'll go to Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, again, congratulations on your new posting, sir. As Mr. Oliphant has said, I believe you have the number one cabinet post in Canada. If I may say, sir, you have surrounded yourself with some very good staff members. My wife always says, “If you're in trouble, just listen to the lady to your left, and she'll be able to straighten you out.”

I have some basic questions for you, sir. I am going to ask you three or four questions, and then you can answer at the end.

First of all, we know that Ste. Anne's Hospital is talking about divestiture. My concern is that right now, hospital beds at the Perley, at Belcher, at Camp Hill, and so on across the country are available for World War II and Korean veterans under certain conditions. Once the last Korean and World War II veterans die, what happens to those veterans who are now in their late 60s and early 70s who served in the Suez, in Bosnia, or in Afghanistan? What hospital beds will they be eligible to have in the future? Right now they are not eligible for these beds. What is the department's long-term plan for them?

Second, the Agent Orange Association sent me some figures the other day. I don't know if they are accurate. They have indicated that the Government of Canada has so far spent over $2 million in legal fees fighting the Agent Orange class action suit. If indeed they are correct, that would mean that instead of fighting them, another 1,000 veterans or their families could have received the $20,000 ex gratia payment.

Of all the cases like the SISIP court case and the Agent Orange court case, how much money has the Government of Canada, on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs, spent in legal fees fighting veterans cases? I know it is not in the estimates. It probably comes from the Department of Justice. Could we get those figures?

This is my last question for you. I really appreciated your announcement about April 9, not just because it is Vimy Ridge Day but because we are going to be honouring all those who served in World War I. I'm just wondering, sir, if you could elaborate a bit more on what the government is planning for commemoration across the country. Are legions advised of this? Are the army, the navy, and the air force? Are the provinces involved? Can you give us a little more detail on the government's preparations for this significant day?

Please and thank you, and again, welcome.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Thank you for your questions, and I will try to answer them one by one.

With respect to Ste. Anne's Hospital, as you may recall, we had several hospitals across the country and, following the war, health care was not organized based on provincial structures. It is the federal government that set up these hospitals to support veterans. Over the years, the government has divested itself of these hospitals and transferred them to the provinces, Ste. Anne's Hospital in Montreal being the last of these hospitals.

Having said that, our World War II veterans have access to Ste. Anne's Veterans Hospital. It provides geriatric and psychogeriatric services. People can go there depending on their needs, particularly if they are not able to receive the necessary care in their community.

As regards our “new” veterans, they are not cared for in a geriatric centre, because they are not old enough. At the same time, it has been proposed that the Government of Quebec purchase Ste. Anne's Hospital. The Quebec government has shown some interest in acquiring it. You may recall that one or two years ago, an entire floor at that hospital had to be shut down because of the smaller client base.

As a general rule, people are like you and me, in that they prefer to be hospitalized close to where they live, if they can, rather than be sent to a hospital 300 kilometers from home. Their wives and family also want them to be hospitalized close to their place of residence. We have in fact reserved beds in a number of provincial hospitals, in order that veterans who so desire can receive services close to where they live, rather than being sent to Ste. Anne's Hospital.

As well, you have also heard people saying that they would like their wives to be with them. For example, if you have Alzheimer's disease, but your wife has another health problem, it may not be easy to accede to your wishes.

In addition to that, under the legislation, Ste. Anne's Hospital is reserved for veterans only—not their spouses. It is only for veterans. However, once that hospital has been transferred to the Government of Quebec, if we are able to agree and if the Government of Quebec is willing to acquire it, veterans will obviously take priority. That is the situation as it currently stands.

So, the new veterans do not go there. It is completely different for them.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Sir, with great respect, I think you may have misunderstood my question. I know there are contract beds across the country. When the last World War II or Korean veteran dies, what happens to those contract beds vis-à-vis those veterans who are now in their late 60s or early 70s who did not serve in World War II or Korea? They served in Bosnia. They served in the Suez. They served in Haiti. They served in Cypress. They're now in their late 60s or early 70s. In a few years they may need hospital beds. What will happen to those folks when they request those beds? Will those beds be available for them?