Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 28th, 2011

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colonel, do you think that our two countries should follow up on their veterans in order to find out where they live, what their address is, what they have been doing since they left the army and whether any of them have committed suicide? As I was saying earlier, I understand very well that a coroner inquires into the death to determine the cause of it, but what we are interested in are the reasons for the death. Was a separation involved? Why? Was the individual being treated by a psychologist owing to post-traumatic stress? Do you think that our two countries should make sure not to lose sight of those people once they leave the army?

[LCol Andrew Cohn]

Absolutely. As I mentioned, one of our challenges is tracking people down once they leave defence. It's only when they put in a compensation claim through the Department of Veterans' Affairs that we can really find out where they are, how they're going, and whether they have any major health problems that we need to help them with. It is a major issue that we are dealing with, as I'm sure you are as well.

It's going to be just a matter of trying various initiatives and trying to reach out to engage with them. Obviously social networking websites are but one idea, and they're not going to work with everybody. They'll only work with some people.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You did not answer my question regarding investigations of suicide cases. Should each suicide be the focus of a separate investigation? I believe that it should, since we need to determine not how the person committed suicide, but rather the cause of the suicide. I am talking about further investigation of the reasons that drove the person to commit suicide. Do you agree with me?

[LCol Andrew Cohn]

Yes. Certainly every time one of our defence force members commits suicide, there's always a coroner's inquiry by the state coroner, but that's only one part of it.

Major Damien Hadfield, our suicide prevention program desk officer, who works with me, always looks through the psychological file and the medical file. He conducts a small desktop evaluation and investigation into the causes of that member's suicide, and we provide a report to our surgeon general in defence, reporting to him the factors that may have led that person to suicide. Oftentimes it's the same or very similar things that come out: the person went through a major separation, a breakdown of a relationship, or maybe a major change of life, such as a medical downgrade or a major disappointment. There are often other factors underlying that as well, which come out from the psychological and the medical file.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Our last question is from Mr. Kerr, please.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Actually, it's not a question. I just wanted to clarify a percentage that my friend Mr. André offered.

The department approves somewhere around 36,000 out of the 40,000 that come before the department each year, on average, and it's a small percentage of those that actually go to Federal Court through the appeal process that have problems, so it's actually in the high 80%-plus for those that are approved by the department.

I think you were that saying 60% of them were rejected. I just want to clarify that.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I would like to specify to Mr. Kerr that I made a mistake. Actually, 66% of first-time claims are refused. Representatives of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board provided us with this figure at the committee's last meeting. You can read the minutes of that meeting.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Maybe I could ask the clerk to clarify. What went on the record?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I want to make sure that our witness isn't confused here, so I'm going to let my analyst explain it.

[Jean-Rodrigue Paré, Committee Researcher]

Okay. I'll do it very rapidly. The department makes 40,000 decisions a year. Of those 40,000 decisions, in round numbers, 4,000 go to the review process, so 10% go to the review process.

Of these 4,000, about 1,000 to 1,500 go to the appeal process, and 15 to 30, let's say, go to the Federal Court. The Federal Court does overturn 60% of the board's decisions, but that's very far from 60% of the first department decisions, which are accepted, for a rate of about 80%.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Chair, on that, though--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay. Again we're into debate here, but I'm going to let Ms. Sgro interject one more time, because we are running out of time.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Just for clarification, in the report that we are soon going to be talking about and doing, can we make sure these things are clear so that we all know exactly what numbers we're talking about?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We will make sure they're clear.

Lieutenant-Colonel Cohn, thank you very much for your time today and for your candid answers. I wish you all the best. I know that in Australia you've had some trying times with weather over this past short time, so we wish you all the best.

We're in a real snowstorm here today. I imagine it's quite warm where you are, but here it's cool.

Thank you so much for being a great witness. I wish you all the best, sir.

[An hon. member]

Hear, hear!

[LCol Andrew Cohn]

Thank you very much, sir. It's been a pleasure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Now we're going to suspend for a couple of minutes and then go into some committee business.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome back. We'll go into our business part of the meeting here if we can. I have to try to let my clerk have a little direction here. She's been running into a little bit of trouble with some of our witnesses.

We do have two witnesses for Wednesday, and there are three other witnesses who are still on the list. Two of them are quite difficult. They're Americans, and they're in the States. She's having a hard time to arrange even a teleconferencing with them, so we might end up with just one more witness after Wednesday. We're looking for direction on where to go from there.

I don't know when this committee would like to look at the supplementary estimates (C). It could possibly be on the 7th or 9th or the 21st. They have to be looked at and done by the 21st. We could schedule that in for the 7th if that would happen, if you want to look at the supplementary estimates. I think that would be advisable. We should be able to get through the supplementary estimates in one meeting, but would you like to just leave the 9th in case we don't get through it on the 7th? We could do that.

Bill C-55is coming down the pipe at some point; I don't know when it comes up in the House again. It will be directed to this committee. Once that happens, it takes precedence, so we'll have to work that in. If we could set the supplementary estimates for this--

[A voice]

We have to make sure the minister is available too.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Yes. If we go with the 7th or 9th, we have to make sure that the minister is available. We have the 7th, 9th, or 21st.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

It should be on whichever one he would be available.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm going to go to Mr. Vincent and then I'm coming to you over on this side.

Go ahead, Mr. Vincent.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If at all possible, I would like to have a draft version of a report, since we currently have nothing to guide us. We have nothing and we don't know how the analysis will shape this draft. Having a draft would help us in deciding what questions to ask other witnesses. We can always ask any question we want, but since we don't know in what direction we want the report to go, it would be much more interesting to have a draft. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay, we're going to go to Mr. Kerr and then we'll discuss what we're talking about here.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Obviously we're looking at page 2 here. I understand that we definitely have those witnesses this Wednesday, the 2nd, so we're on to the 7th and 9th. We also have to try to get the bill through here and back to the House as quickly as we can. I think that was our undertaking. As soon as debate's finished in the House, we agreed we'd bring it in here. I'm suggesting that obviously could happen by Monday if everything goes well.

I think 7th and 9th really should be left for the estimates and the bill, depending on how we make out here. We are obligated to deal with both those items. I don't know whether the clerk had an additional witness you're trying to bring in for the 21st on or not.