Veterans Affairs Committee on March 2nd, 2011

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Westwood. Are you able to hear the simultaneous interpretation?

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

Yes, it's working.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I am glad we have the chance to discuss your PTSD transition program. You talked about services becoming more decentralized so that veterans can have access to self-help groups. People who go through similar situations can share these traumatic events and help each other. This helps them with their therapy and the healing process.

But I have been noticing a common problem in Quebec. I guess it also applies to the rest of Canada. Veterans who live in remote rural areas have a hard time getting to PTSD support services in cities, because the distances are often quite considerable.

I am going to talk about Quebec, but I am sure the situation is similar in the rest of Canada. Could we develop local services in the various areas of Quebec, in CLSCs? Could we train professionals to provide these services to veterans? What do you think about that? I think the system is highly centralized and it is not accessible to the entire target population.

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

Thank you for your question, Mr. André.

I think it's a very good question.

There are two things I want to say. The answer is yes. We could train professionals accompanied by paraprofessional soldiers helping people in rural parts of Canada and Quebec. Why do I say that? I say that because soldiers know where other soldiers live. They seem to have their own network through the Internet. They seem to know where people are.

I think it would be a very good suggestion to have rural teams go out to where they are living, because many times they don't live near the large cities. We're facing that same issue here. I totally support the idea of going out into rural Canada and Quebec as long as we include other soldiers who are part of that team, because other soldiers being a part of the team gives confidence to potential newcomers.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I do think the idea should be developed. This is about the link between the public sector and veterans. I think there are things we can work on.

I would also like to hear what you have to say on the issue of screening. We see that many veterans develop PTSD after a military mission, two, three, four or ten years after the traumatic event. Sometimes, they realize relatively late that they have been living with PTSD.

Through your research, have you developed tools to help you be more successful in screening people who could later develop PTSD? There does not seem to be any follow-up as such. It seems that people leave the army, go home, and, only later, it is usually their families that notice a change in behaviour.

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

You've just identified one of the conditions of PTSD, which is that it doesn't present or become obvious until months later, so many people are not diagnosed.

No, we haven't developed any measures. What we have done is contact other soldiers who have been through our program in order for them to go out and make contact with newly deployed soldiers coming back, to let them know that this kind of program might be available if they wish to take it later. I think we could do a lot better job in this country at the point of deployment.

When they do the decompression program in Cyprus, we could perhaps do a better job of giving them information at that time by saying, “Look, when you return home, maybe up to 30% of you--you may feel fine now--will develop symptoms later, and these are normal, this is a normal part of a re-entry program, and this is how to make contact”. But the hard thing about working with PTSD and the military is that most military people at the end of their service just want to get home and want to avoid any contact with organizations. That has been my experience, so I don't think we've been very successful at identifying potential candidates.

But in reference to your notion of screening, when people apply to come into our program, we do screen them, because some of them are so severely injured with PTSD that they need more medically focused treatment, with psychotropic drugs or individual work. That is done in the PTSD clinics. Then they become stabilized and are ready for the group. All of our work takes place in a group.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. André, just a short one, please.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In my opinion, when we are working with people struggling with PTSD, it is important to build on information from the families. There seems to be a lack of information from families living with soldiers who are likely to develop PTSD.

Don't you think we should put more emphasis on information from the spouses and families of those soldiers? I think they are in a better position to identify the symptoms.

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

You're absolutely correct. I think the families are the best early warning systems of when returning members are showing signs of symptoms, so absolutely, we should work with families in a preventive way to inform them of what to notice, what to expect.

One thing I do need to say to you in the committee is that it's been my experience as a psychologist that there's a certain amount of social stigma and shame around having PTSD, so sometimes a family under-reports, as well as the serving member himself. So we have to normalize it and get this information out that the best way to help a loved one in your family is that if you see these symptoms, go with them and help them make contact with the service.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much for that.

We'll move on now.

Mr. Stoffer, five minutes, please.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

Dr. Westwood, thank you very much for appearing today, and thank you for the work that you're doing.

My first question for you, sir, is this. You said that 20 years ago the federal government assisted you financially in a project you had done with war veterans--of World War II, I suspect. Have you or your organization in the last five or 10 years made a formal application for funding to the federal government--to the military, to Health Canada, or to Veterans Affairs--to assist you in your project? If you have, what was the response? If you haven't, why not?

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

That's a good question. You said in the last five years...? No, I have not attempted that in the last five years. In the last five years, when I didn't meet with success in my early request for funding from Veterans Affairs, I met with the Legion, and they were very eager to support it. They provided us with all the resources that we needed here at UBC. I have not applied since that time because, frankly, I felt defeated.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Say that again, sir: you didn't need it...?

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

I felt defeated.

I felt defeated. From the response to my request and my suggestions to VAC a few years ago, I didn't feel very much support or reinforcement. I was using an approach that was unconventional and not in line with the protocol that VAC was using at the time. They focused primarily on individual treatment at that time. I was proposing group-based work.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Well, Dr. Westwood, I would just make a slight recommendation to you that you consider making an application to DVA just to see what their response would be in 2011. I can't answer for the government or the minister, but hopefully you might get a different response. one that would assist you in what you do.

Here in our papers it says that since 1997 approximately 200 soldiers and veterans have come looking to you for assistance. Yet we know there are thousands more out there who need help, there's no question about it, and for a variety of reasons they're not getting that help. So my other question for you is this: do you assist any RCMP veterans at all?

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

Yes. In my program we've had two RCMP veterans request to come to our program. The rest of them are soldiers, but we've assisted the RCMP with two, most recently within the last two years.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Do you assist anyone else, such as municipal police, firefighters, or anyone of that nature at all outside of the federal responsibility of veterans and RCMP?

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

No, just the returning veterans and the RCMP.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

In your discussions with the soldiers, veterans, and RCMP members, do you invite or do you ask to invite certain family members to come in with the individual at the time?

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

Yes, we do. We have what's called a spousal program.We invite the spouses to attend a separate program that occurs at the same time that we offer ours. Ours is a 10-day program spread over three months. On one of those particular days, we bring the spouses in, to wherever we're meeting, and we give them a program and provide them information, support, ongoing future direction, and referrals if needed.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Sir, my last question for you is on the comparison between regular force individuals who you assist and those who are reservists. I was wondering if you could break that down for us. In your work that you've been doing for the last 14 years in this regard, is it difficult for reservists to come forward or is it difficult to try to find them in order for them to seek out the assistance they may require?

Because along with that, here's what my question is leading to. Obviously when these soldiers are integrated into civilian society, they're working in other jobs and they feel like productive citizens. Do you work at all with any prospective employers out there who hire these soldiers and veterans to let them know certain things to watch out for in the event that their symptoms resurface in their new place of employment, in order to assist the new employer in what they may or may not encounter in the future?

[Dr. Marvin Westwood]

I wish I could say yes to that, but the answer is no. I haven't done that with employers.

I'll tell you who I have done that with, though. My team is working with the B.C. Institute of Technology here in Vancouver because they have a program for new veterans coming in. We work with the instructors, the staff at the school, the faculty and so on, to help them be alert and anticipate the special needs of this population.

But I think your suggestion of doing this with employers is excellent. We just haven't done that. We've just been focusing on working with the soldiers themselves.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Next question, Mr. Mayes, please.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Dr. Westwood, for being with us today.

I do have a question, but first I'll give you a little background. I was with Veterans Affairs here five years ago when I was first elected and, of course, the plan was to move Veterans Affairs away from being just a benefit plan to a life support plan or a caring plan where we were following the veteran and making sure that all their needs during their full life after service were cared for. That is why there was the inception of the Veterans Charter and then the further review that we've been doing to carry that out and to improve that system. This study is just a furtherance of that.

One of the things we've heard in previous testimony was about the importance of family--and you've mentioned colleagues--as far as helping those veterans who are suffering from PTSD and those who might be suicidal is concerned. What about...? You've stressed colleagues. Previously there were a lot of witnesses who said that it's important for family to be involved in that support, and I would even suggest the community, whether it be the local Legion or even church groups or organizations that are there to support those veterans. I was wondering if you have any of that as far as your transition program goes in looking for support for those veterans you're dealing with.