Evidence of meeting #41 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
No, I'm talking about rates.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
You said that there is more post-traumatic stress among individuals who are sent to a theatre of operations than among individuals who take part in peacekeeping missions, like the people in the Canadian army. But we have heard from a number of witnesses who have participated in these missions, and I can tell you that a lot of them have experienced post-traumatic stress. They were not allowed to use their weapons, and they saw things that they shouldn't have seen.
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
I didn't say that they experienced more or less of it. I said that it was different.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
That doesn't change the diagnosis. Whether a person is in a theatre of operations or on a peacekeeping mission, the diagnosis of post-traumatic stress is the same. The phenomena are the same. So, whether a person is in one situation or another, if a person experiences post-traumatic stress, they experience it, I suppose.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Based on all these studies, what recommendations would you make to the committee so that members of the Canadian Forces can get training, or something else, to lessen or reduce post-traumatic stress, to control it or manage it better?
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
My recommendation will not surprise you. I think that we need to step up research. We have an opportunity in Canada. We have a strength, an extremely large research capacity, in mental health neurosciences, compared with our population. As I said, the quality of the research in this area, in Canada, is remarkable. What I find unfortunate is that there isn't enough research focusing on this particular area.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
If a lot of studies have been done, how is it that people at National Defence are telling us that soldiers are being given barely half a day of training before being sent into a theatre of operations? If there are so many studies, how is it that there isn't adequate training?
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
I am not talking about training soldiers; it isn't really my department or my specialty. What I am saying is that, as the president of a research agency, I must work very closely with the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of National Defence to determine more specific strategic research objectives and to invest more and in a more targeted way in these areas. We are now taking part in new types of combats and we have young veterans that we didn't have in the past. I don't think that we have been made well enough aware of the importance of the development of this illness and the number of young Canadians who suffer from it. I think that we need to step up research in this area to understand the biological bases of the illness and develop treatments and, afterwards, of course, ensure that the soldiers are seen by doctors and treated.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Sir, thank you very much for coming today.
Do you also have allocations of research for members of the RCMP who have retired?
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Our allocations for research are to researchers, so the researchers choose their subjects and the type of research they're going to do. We haven't done any work with the RCMP, and I think that's an excellent suggestion, actually.
We haven't done much with National Defence, but we're starting to work with them. We've done a few things with Veterans Affairs to try to jointly support research teams that will work on topics of immediate interest to the members of the armed forces or the veterans. Clearly, it will always be based on the excellence of the projects that are proposed to us.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
In previous testimony, we heard that post-traumatic stress disorder can be transferred inadvertently to members of the family, either the spouse or the children. In the research allocations that are offered, do any of these researchers work with family members to perform some of the scopes and scannings of family members? Are you aware of that?
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
I'm not aware of it, but I could certainly have someone look at it and send you the information. I don't want to go out on a limb; I don't know. It's possible that some of them do. I would have to look at the research projects specifically.
NDP
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
I've heard the same thing, and I know that there are some research reports, for instance, of increased incidence of depression in the families of military persons.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
One of the concerns I hear consistently in regard to post-traumatic stress disorder, or operational stress injury, has to do with the efforts of those suffering from PTSD to get assistance. Someone will go to a department for assistance, either a federal or provincial department, and they'll get the bureaucratic delay. They're told to get in line and that someone will get back to them.
This aggravates their condition, from what they tell me. When their spouses or their kids go off the rails because this person has dropped the baggage, it affects them all. When you left for your deployment, your family was quiet and routine, and everyone had a place. You come back and suddenly everything is helter-skelter.
You don't know what you're doing. Your family members don't recognize you anymore. We hear the saying, “This is not my husband anymore—he's not the same man who left”. Everything's in a topsy-turvy sort of turmoil. That compounds the situation even more. For people trying to assist the individual, it must be a real challenge to try to put everything in balance and in place again.
Dr. Westwood indicated that for the last five years he hasn't applied to DVA for funding. Are you aware of him? Would he be eligible to apply to CIHR for some type of funding?
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
I don't know the man, but if he has research credentials and he's affiliated with a hospital or university, he would certainly be eligible. We have two types of programs.
We have targeted programs. For instance, we could decide with Veterans Affairs or National Defence to pool some money on a targeted program to answer specific questions. Then, once we determine what the question is, it's an open call for competition. Everyone who has the credentials and the research training is allowed to apply to CIHR.
In addition to that, we have a fully open program so that anyone, any researcher in the land with the right credentials and proper affiliation, can apply to CIHR through our open grants competition with any good idea that he or she may have.
So there are two parallel mechanisms. In each case, you have to go through a competition. It's reviewed by experts, and only the very best proposals, and the ones that are methodologically sound, that have sound hypotheses, that are anchored in reality, will get funded.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
We know that other countries are doing research similar to this. Are there any cross-references between researchers here and researchers in the United States, Europe, and Australia? If so, it could constitute a cost saving.
Moreover, you don't want to keep spending money reinventing the wheel. And you want to develop best practices. We've heard that a soldier is a soldier is a soldier. Regardless of the uniform, their experiences may be equal. Is there any linkage from your organization to assist researchers in coordinating these efforts?
President, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Certainly.
First of all, there's a huge amount of collaboration between Canadian investigators and American investigators. The U.S. is our major collaborator in science and all areas, but particularly in the area of mental health. The second one is the U.K. and the third one is France. These are major countries we collaborate with and we do encourage collaboration with other countries, putting together experiences.
In addition to that, and I may have been misunderstood by Mr. Vincent before, it's clear that we always take into consideration the scientific literature that comes from other countries, and certainly the experience that comes from research that's been done in the United States. We don't reinvent the wheel.
What I was just trying to say is that, in addition, I think it's important that we don't let all the research be done by others. I think we may have some specificity here in Canada with the Canadian armed forces, and I gave some examples of what some of these specificities could be that make it worthwhile to also do our own research and to compare our data with the data in other countries.
We certainly do that systematically in that area, I would say, like in all others. It's an area where, because Canada is held in such high esteem in neuroscience and mental health studies, we have absolutely no difficulty collaborating with other countries. Other countries are actually willing to collaborate with us because of the quality of our researchers.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is around any research that you've done on what actually triggers the PTSD. We had General Dallaire testify before the committee in the fall. He talked about a trigger that he encountered after he had done his service. If he was at a market, the aroma of fresh fruit or vegetables brought him back to a time when he was in Africa. I'm just wondering what the research is on triggers or predicting triggers or trying to identify this.
