Veterans Affairs Committee on March 8th, 2012

[Keith Hillier]

Mr. Chair, with regard to the new Veterans Charter and overall government expenditures, as was noted here on Tuesday afternoon, with the tabling of supplementary estimates (C) and the main estimates, there's been a continual increase in the budget of the Department of Veterans Affairs over the last number of years.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

When you say there's been more money that's been sent by the government to Veterans Affairs, can you quantify that in any way for us here today?

[Keith Hillier]

I don't have the numbers off the top of my head. They were tabled on Tuesday afternoon. But it's been many millions of dollars, particularly with regard to Bill C-55, which came into effect last fall, and in fact increased the amounts of money for those most injured. So there have been significant amounts. I don't want to quote an amount, but I know that the budget of the department is over $3.6 billion, approaching $3.7 billion. So there has been a constant increase.

If you look at the budget figures, you will see the amounts are significant, in that, sadly, with the passing of many Second World War veterans, those budgetary expenditures are going down, but with regard to the modern-day veterans, and we have about 72,000 right now, those budget expenditures have been increasing in areas such as disability amounts and in the earnings loss program, for those who are on the rehabilitation program.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I remember that as part of our work we studied PTSD in the modern veteran community and how it is a phenomenon that wasn't experienced perhaps to the same extent in the traditional veteran community.

Mr. Parent, I love your conceptual proposal of less complexity. I think that's absolutely the direction we should go, in many ways and across many departments of government.

I would ask, Mr. Hillier, when you hear that expression of less complexity, can you give us a couple of specific examples that you're working on to make sure the system is less complex and therefore more efficient and less costly to operate administratively?

[Keith Hillier]

I'll start off. There has been considerable discussion this afternoon about the veterans ID card, and I can tell you that we are working with the chief of military personnel staff on that by trying to make a.... Right now at Veterans Affairs we work with a Veterans Affairs number. Most men and women who serve—I would say all men and women who serve—relate more to their service number. So we're working on initiatives to see how data could be transferred using a service number, and we are also looking at the issue of the card.

One of the things that veterans have told us is that they don't want a DND card and a VAC card; they don't need both in their wallet. That's why we're working with the chief of military personnel to come up with a card that will indicate that somebody has served their country and also be of use for veterans issues. We're actively working on that as we speak.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Are there any steps that you're taking to strengthen your relationship with the veterans and with the stakeholders?

[Keith Hillier]

It's really a couple of things, in terms of stakeholders. Certainly the Department of National Defence is a big stakeholder. I co-chair a committee with Rear-Admiral Smith at the strategic level. We had a meeting with stakeholders recently—I'm trying to think back now—in February, and we had one in the fall with the stakeholders to get their input on important issues related to both service delivery and policy. Also, they are giving us some feedback as to what they're hearing on the ground from members.

At the operational level, I think it's really important to note that when somebody is leaving the Canadian Forces for medical reasons, our case manager—“our” meaning VAC's—works with the DND case manager so that there's a seamless hand-off. They work together for a period of time, so that when the person comes over into VAC, we are not strangers to them.

Also, I'd like to point out that at the integrated personnel support units across the country I have 100 staff who go to work every day at a Canadian Forces base or wing, and they work side by side with military personnel to provide a one-stop service, so that if a veteran or someone still serving has some issues or some questions, they can go in to the integrated personnel support centre and hear about things that affect them related to the Canadian Forces, and also hear about the services and benefits to which they may be entitled from Veterans Affairs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hillier.

That concludes the second round. I'm going to suggest four-minute turns for the final round. We have time to do that. Knowing that the answers and the questions tend to run a little over, I don't think we have time for five minutes.

If the committee agrees, we'll start a four-minute round and go with that.

Is that okay?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

We're going to start the four-minute round, then, with Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm so glad to have this time, because I have a significant number of questions.

I want to go back to the problems facing modern-day veterans, and the issue here is the meetings they have with the veterans review board.

When a veteran applies for a disability, frequently they're denied on the first application. Then they appeal. They go to the appeal board, and they may be denied again.

The problem that's been identified—and I think you've identified it too—is the mountain of paperwork that is required. For most veterans it's just overwhelming, particularly if they are suffering from mental health concerns. They feel as though they can't possibly manage; they can't fight for themselves. One of the realities is that in my community, and in a number of communities, too many of these veterans end up on the street. They're homeless. In some situations, they slip through the cracks.

In Halifax, we met with Jim Lowther and David MacLeod. They've been doing work on the ground. They've actually found 13 veterans who were homeless and have managed to support them and get services for them and get homes for them. Their complaint was that Veterans Affairs hadn't been able to find them. Mr. MacLeod and Mr. Lowther found these men, but Veterans Affairs wasn't able to. They're operating their support services and shelters with their own money. They're not receiving any funding.

This reminded me very much of what's happening in my own home community. We have a number of veterans. There's been some attempt to study and determine how many there are, but still there is this sort of missing piece in terms of Veterans Affairs pursuing this issue of homelessness for very vulnerable people.

I have to say I've met some of them, and they're very fragile. They need support. They need help. I was wondering, if you were able to make a recommendation around Veterans Affairs and its interaction or support for homeless veterans, what would that be?

[Guy Parent]

Thank you very much for the question.

I think homelessness for veterans has probably been an issue since the office was introduced, in the last couple of years. Certainly my predecessor's campaign triggered a lot of projects within Veterans Affairs Canada, and I'll stay away from funding and budget and all that. I'm sure Mr. Hillier can address that aspect of it.

Our biggest concern with the homelessness program at this point in time is the absence of a national strategy for homeless veterans in Canada. There are a lot of individual projects that work with different approaches, and I think all of them have proven to be of some benefit. I just recently went to Vancouver and dropped into the drop-in for homeless veterans in Veterans Memorial Manor, a very good project there as well. But again, we keep talking about projects.

We think that regional inconsistencies in Veterans Affairs Canada are in themselves unfair, because we do have inconsistencies, and veterans should not suffer or be treated unfairly because they have chosen to live in a certain place in our country. It should be the same across the board.

That's the one thing that we see is lacking: a national strategy. The thing is that these projects should now be helping to inform some kind of a national strategy for homeless veterans. Again, I think most of the ones that are in place right now are working, but there is more work to be done at that level.

I would certainly like to take this opportunity to commend the Royal Canadian Legion for the work they do for the homeless population, because I think everywhere we've gone, we've seen that those projects are being helped by the Royal Canadian Legion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

That's your time.

I would allow one thing. You did reference Mr. Hillier in funding. I don't know if Mr. Hillier wanted to make a brief comment or not.

[Keith Hillier]

Funding is not the issue.

Homelessness is very complex, as you know. We have our case managers available all across Canada, and I know, for example...I've met with Mr. Lowther in Halifax. I went to Halifax to see him. He's doing wonderful work. His team and my team in Halifax work very closely together.

In terms of funding, there are various emergency funds that are available when something comes to our attention. There are emergency funds available so that we can help out in many situations.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thanks very much. Pardon me, and please bear with me; I lost my voice yesterday.

Following up on that, we met at the Good Shepherd Ministries in Toronto with individuals who are helping the homeless veterans population, and in fact, after the presentation, I sat down with one gentleman who had been homeless, who had faced down many addictions, including alcoholism.

Could you give us some insight into the types of programs that are available to our veterans once they've left, especially if they haven't sat in that transition interview with you?

Sometimes post-traumatic stress disorder or some types of addictions will only crop up a year or two years later. What types of services are available to our veterans then?

[Keith Hillier]

First of all, there are no time limits on services that are available to veterans as it relates to the rehabilitation program.

With many of these people, and I have been to Toronto and other places across the country, and some of these people, sadly, are suffering from addiction issues. Getting them into rehabilitation programs.... The programs that we have available are, for example, retraining, where someone can get a new skill. The reality is that if they're having issues with addiction or with anger management, or if they're having issues of social adjustment, in every case the case manager sits down with the veteran and his or her partner, as the case may be, or a military friend, whoever they may want to bring to the interview, to try to set some realistic objectives for them, with a goal to getting them off the street.

I can tell you, it's a very fragile exercise. Many of these people do not trust society, and it takes a long time. I was talking with one of the caseworkers in Montreal just recently, and they had been working for eight months with a veteran to try to get the person's trust so that they could move that next step forward to be able to get the treatments they need, because before you can get into services and benefits, you really have to deal with the particular issue. As one of my caseworkers said to me at the IPSC in Gagetown, New Brunswick, we, as average Canadians, sometimes have difficulty understanding how these people live. To a homeless person, their major priority is the next meal.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is to you, Monsieur Parent.

We also met with a physician, a female physician actually, out on the east coast, Dr. MacKinnon, I believe her name was. She compared DND's health records retention to that of VAC, and she indicated that when somebody is there to see her and that person is still in the armed forces, the medical records are sent in centrally and she needs to report in to DND, whereas once somebody is with Veterans Affairs, she'll complete the paperwork, but there's no central repository for that. It's not forwarded anywhere. It simply stays with her, and she was concerned about that.

Could you comment on that? Have you ever looked at that? Are there privacy concerns? I think there's a balance to be had there perhaps.

[Guy Parent]

I think, again, that's a good question, and Mr. Chair, the best way to answer that is that it's a transition issue. There needs to be facilitation and harmonizing between what DND does and what Veterans Affairs Canada and the provincial health care programs do. There certainly needs to be some work done on that.

There are, as I answered a question earlier, discrepancies between the spectrum of care in the Canadian Forces and the spectrum of care available between the provinces and Veterans Affairs programs. There is also a difference in the compendium of medication, where in fact drugs are not the same, and there's a transition to be made there, which leads sometimes to crisis.

We're concerned about the paperwork issue. There were some aspects of that concern that were present when I was still in the armed forces, about medical officers actually writing out paperwork for people in uniform trying to access Veterans Affairs Canada benefits. There was a problem there because they would have to divulge to the service the injuries these people were claiming for, and that became really complicated.

I'm not really sure whether this answers your question or not. Is it Heather you were talking to? Heather Armstrong?

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Yes, MacKinnon.

[Guy Parent]

MacKinnon, sorry.

I'm not sure which paperwork in particular she was talking about.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

She was indicating that....

Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

We're out of time. Maybe you can discuss that at the end of the meeting.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Afterwards, Mr. Parent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Casey, for four minutes.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

If you're about to discuss it later...Dr. MacKinnon is a family physician in Halifax who has voluntarily decided to limit her practice to veterans only, and she gave a very compelling presentation to us in Halifax.

Mr. Parent, I appreciate that several times today you've mentioned the funeral and burial program and the underfunding, and there have been excellent questions from Mr. Lobb and Mr. Lizon on this topic.

You've put lights around this in one or some of your reports. It was one of the specific recommendations of this committee in our last report. I've pressed the minister in question period on at least a couple of occasions about this. What explanation have you received with respect to the intransigence of the government on this issue?