Evidence of meeting #34 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was affairs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Maureen Sinnott  Director, Strategic and Enabling Initiatives, Department of Veterans Affairs
Raymond Lalonde  Director General, Operational Stress Injuries National Network, Department of Veterans Affairs
Derek Sullivan  Director General, Canada Remembers Division, Department of Veterans Affairs
Gord Jenkins  President, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada
Robert O'Brien  Chairman, Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping
Jarrott Holtzhauer  Vice-President, Plans and Policy, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada
Thurston Kaulbach  Vice-President, Advocacy, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Yes.

I want to thank you all very much, gentlemen, for coming today.

My colleague will be asking you some questions.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Mr. Chicoine.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank our witnesses for coming today to share their concerns with us.

My first question is addressed to you, Mr. Jenkins. You spoke of your concerns about beds being transferred out of Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue Hospital, which is the only veterans hospital that still exists in Canada. You said that those beds should be reserved for, not modern veterans, but veterans from the second wave, sort to speak. I tend to agree with you on that, but I would appreciate your expanding on why it is important to keep those beds available for all veterans who may require long-term care in future.

4:55 p.m.

President, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Gord Jenkins

There is a hospital in the United States by the name of Walter Reed Health Care System. It is a centre of excellence for U.S. veterans. There is no such hospital in Canada. We definitely need a hospital for veterans returning from Afghanistan. Post-traumatic stress syndrome is not really new. We have just given a new name to a problem experienced by veterans in the past.

I do hope that we will be able to keep one hospital in Canada as a centre of expertise. If I am not mistaken, the department is in the process of transferring it; I believe that process has actually been completed. I share your opinion. We have only one veterans hospital and we are losing it.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

You also expressed concerns about the fact that there are 13 different health care systems in place in the provinces which do not all provide exactly the same level of service. What are your specific concerns in that regard? Is it that veterans be as well treated in one province as they are in another, all across Canada? You seem to be saying that there are differences from one place to the next. Did I understand you correctly?

4:55 p.m.

President, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Gord Jenkins

As you know, there are 10 different health care and veteran treatment systems in Canada, one for each of the provinces, as well as those in the territories. That makes 13 different health care systems in all. So, yes, I am concerned. Once that transfer has been completed, who will meet the needs of veterans and provide them with quality treatment?

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Veterans require specialized care. That is why the federal government took on this responsibility. The idea was to provide equal services to all veterans all across the country.

4:55 p.m.

President, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Gord Jenkins

Precisely.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

And you are concerned that people are not receiving the same care all across Canada.

4:55 p.m.

President, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Gord Jenkins

That's correct.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

I have a question for Mr. O'Brien.

You say that the New Veterans Charter seems to discriminate against modern veterans because, after 20 or 30 years, many of them would receive a smaller allowance than if they were subject to the old charter. Is that correct?

Let's use the example of a soldier returning from Afghanistan who becomes a veteran because he can no longer serve in the Canadian Forces. If that person were subject to the old charter, would he receive better treatment or a better allowance?

5 p.m.

Chairman, Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping

Robert O'Brien

It would depend largely on the level of injury. In very short form, the worst-off soldier or veteran is hurt the worst by the new Veterans Charter. If he is in really bad shape, he would be better off under the old Pension Act. There are entitlements under the old Pension Act, including financial ones, that would serve him better than what he'll get under the new Veterans Charter.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Lobb.

May 15th, 2012 / 5 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank all the gentlemen here today, certainly with some very distinguished service to our country, and thank you for that.

The topic and the goal of the study is to examine the transformation taking place within the department from some clear shortcomings addressed some time ago.

Mr. Jenkins and Mr. O'Brien, if you're looking at transformation—I did read your notes here, but if you're going to get right to the point, what do you think transformation should look like at the department?

5 p.m.

President, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Gord Jenkins

Mr. Holtzhauer or Mr. Kaulbach can say something. We brought them all the way here, so they might as well….

5 p.m.

Jarrott Holtzhauer Vice-President, Plans and Policy, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Quite simply, I would suggest that all the studies that have been done and all the recommendations made to the department be implemented. Do away with all of the problems that have been created, partly by the new Veterans Charter, partly because of the lack of some of the requirements in the old system. It will never be perfect, but I think if they really want to take transformation, as they talk about it, to the best they can, they can start looking at all of the work that's been done. You don't need to do a lot more. Just look at what's been done and the recommendations that have been made in order to transform Veterans Affairs.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Fair enough.

Does your organization have three or four top things...where you would say for NATO, for the peacekeepers, these are the top three or four we would like to see Veterans Affairs focus on in the transformation, and these are the three or four we'd really like to see in the report as recommendations? So if there are 150 suggestions out there, you could focus on and narrow them down to three or four that might actually....

5 p.m.

Vice-President, Plans and Policy, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Jarrott Holtzhauer

I guess the first one is the expansion of these benefits to the modern-day veteran. We've taken on, as our primary advocacy issue, access to long-term care. Gordon didn't mention it, but at the Perley Rideau, which has been converted to a provincial hospital, there is a waiting list for beds now for Second World War veterans, let alone modern-day veterans. Unless they take this to heart and create a priority system across the country with the provinces, then I'll be number 200 on the list, however much my requirements may be for a bed in long-term care—not tomorrow but probably in a few years.

The second one is the VIP program and its expansion to the modern-day veteran. Why should we be treated any differently from those who went before us? As we've already stated, in my own case, with these guys, we served in UN jobs. I climbed mountains in India and Pakistan for a year. I did two tours in Germany and exercises in north Norway, China, and the Middle East. All of that takes a toll that doesn't necessarily show up right away. I've got bad knees, bad hips, a bad back. I suppose those could all be birth defects, I don't know.

That's where we need to look, and those would be our first two recommendations. We're now in the process of looking at where we should go from there so that we just don't wander off in the wilderness.

We've given you two.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Fair enough.

I don't think anybody would argue that care of our veterans in long-term care facilities isn't important or that we look at revisiting VIP. But when we really boil it down to transformation within the department, and how the department actually operates and carries about its business, is there anything specifically in there? This is really where a lot of this transformation agenda came from. I think back to Colonel Stogran and his comments made almost two years ago. That's really where I see the department's focus. Not that the other two issues you mentioned aren't equally important, but focus on the inner workings and the mechanics of the department to provide an answer, and to provide a service to a veteran, in a reduced time and in a respectful manner.

Is there anything there we can put forward in the recommendation?

5:05 p.m.

Thurston Kaulbach Vice-President, Advocacy, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Yes, I think so.

I've read the transformation plan four or five times and I'm still confused, because it talks in terms of generalities; nothing specific.

As Jarrott said, we've talked about a lot of these things for years. We really have got to come to grips with things.

Now, I have some problems with the numbers that are being tossed about by some of the folks from Veterans Affairs. They're talking about the number of people that they're going to be faced with in a short period of time, over the next four or five years. It's all part of the transformation thing.

The figures that I have, from Veterans Affairs and from the ombudsman's office, show a somewhat different picture. For example, the estimated number of war veterans is 136,400. That figure doesn't show up in any of their documents. The figure for current veterans, modern-day veterans, is about 600,000.

So—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Fair enough, but—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Excuse me, Mr. Lobb. We're approaching seven minutes right now, so I'm going to have to move on.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Casey, five minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to come right back to you, Mr. Kaulbach, and I want to invite you to finish the point that you'd started there.

We have consistently challenged the premise that a downsizing in the department is justified based on the declining population of traditional veterans. We've challenged that premise, and I think you're about to give us a little more ammo.

Perhaps you could let us know where the figures are that you're citing, and feel free to expand on them as you will.

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Advocacy, NATO Veterans Organization of Canada

Thurston Kaulbach

What we end up with, if you combine both figures, is something in the order of 700,000 veterans out there on the street. Whether they're all registered with Veterans Affairs or not, I have no idea, but those are the numbers that are there.

If you break down those numbers on a provincial basis, it's pretty shocking what the strain is going to be on the provincial health care systems.

As an example, just in the province of Nova Scotia, there's a total of 45,000 veterans out there. The province of Nova Scotia has a population of 945,000 people. That's only a very small percentage of the Canadian population, but they have 6.1% of the total veterans population in Canada.

I have all the figures for all the provinces. When you start reducing the call centres....

If you take away the one in Corner Brook, Newfoundland, the only one left is—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

What they're taking away, actually, is a district office—