Evidence of meeting #62 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was told.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Thank you, Mr. Lacoste.
I'm going to ask you my questions in English.
Thank you very much for appearing here today on a difficult subject. As a veteran myself, I thank you for your service. I think all sides in this room appreciate our men and women who serve.
It's clear you've read the study prepared by the scientific committee. It appears you don't agree with it. Is that fair to say?
As an Individual
Absolutely not. What's more, Minister Blaney told me that I could meet with Dr. Morisset so he could better explain it to me. That is another promise Minister Blaney has yet to follow through on. I really wish Minister Blaney would have done what he said, so I could have had a fine presentation, gained a better understanding of the issue and been even more prepared today, but that didn't happen.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
I want to follow up on a question from my colleague, Mr. Chicoine. Specifically, the committee established a number of methods for veterans to comment and to provide feedback to their study. Could you share with us a summary of what information you supplied? It sounds like you didn't appear before them. Did you supply them with this material we have today? Can you give us a summary of what you provided to the committee?
As an Individual
I sent the committee an email to tell them I felt it would be important for them to meet with Dr. June Irwin and Dr. Rosalie Bertell. I was told I had to provide briefs and so forth. I replied that it wasn't my responsibility to provide them, because they were the doctors. I'm not the specialist, but the patient. I provided the contact information for the two doctors via email, but I never heard anything more about it.
As far as administrative procedures go, I've got no skills. I'm no expert. So I gave the committee the necessary tools to access doctors with a direct connection to the subject matter. I left it to the committee, if it was indeed impartial and interested.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Did Dr. Irwin or the sister you mentioned provide material? Did you ask them to provide materials to Dr. Morisset and his team?
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
The study essentially has two conclusions or two areas that they examined. The first was whether Canadian Forces personnel had been in areas where there was a potential for DU exposure. The second was more of an overview of the health impacts of DU.
You spoke about your tour in Bosnia. Their study seemed to indicate that the Doha fire was really the only potential area of exposure for forces personnel. Did you serve at Camp Doha at any point in your career? I don't know what your service background is.
As an Individual
I wasn't in the first Gulf War, only the one in Bosnia. We didn't always have maps on us. I followed; I wasn't a commander. So I can't tell you exactly where I was. But I can tell you that today, without a shadow of a doubt, I have depleted uranium in my body.
According to the department's legislation, I don't have to prove that beyond all doubt. The department is supposed to give us the benefit of the doubt. I went on a mission and I have uranium in my body. That's all I know. As Dr. Morisset said in his report, Canadian military members have no way to determine if they are in a contaminated zone or not. So we weren't informed.
I would like to point out that one of the documents I provided is the United Nation's report on uranium poisoning in Bosnia. It's a lengthy but extremely important report, and it contradicts Dr. Morisset's work.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Here's my last question. In the conclusions, Dr. Morisset indicated at conclusion number seven that whether it's Gulf War syndrome or a number of environmental maladies, in his professional opinion sometimes it's more important to treat the symptoms and how they manifest themselves than it is to find a cause.
Would you agree with that? Also, are you trying to find the right set of medical services whether or not it's DU related? I know that the Nova Scotia clinic is an environmental sensitivities clinic, and that was helpful. Do you think it's helpful, when we don't know the cause, to treat the condition?
As an Individual
The only thing I want is quality care. My greatest dream is to be able to do what I could before I joined the Canadian Forces: run a marathon. If I could get up in the morning and go to work, like a regular person, I would be the happiest man in the world. All I want is my health back.
The impetus for my hunger strike was the fact that I was sick and tired of seeing my comrades in arms kill themselves because they were told that all their problems were in their heads. The Department of Veterans Affairs has a tendency of treating only psychological problems and turning a blind eye to our physical problems. How do you explain the fact that most veterans of our generation are being told that their problems are all in their heads, and yet they're walking around with a limp or a cane. If it's all in our minds, why do our bodies hurt so much?
We want recognition and treatment. That is the only thing I am fighting for. All of my outings have been solely for the purpose of seeking treatment. If you can give me treatment, I will be the happiest man in the world. I don't want to meet with psychiatrists at the Matrix clinic, like I was forced to last year, meetings during which I was told my pain was purely psychosomatic. No, that's not the case. I want treatment for my body, please. Leave my head alone. I am able to manage my post-traumatic stress disorder with the help of my psychologist. Can you treat the body as well?
If they give me treatment, I will be the happiest man in the world, and believe me, as a veteran, I will stand up and go out to find my comrades in arms to tell them the road to success is here. I will bring them myself so they can get better too.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Mr. Lacoste, thank you very much. Mr. O'Toole, thank you.
Now on to Mr. Casey, please.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome, Mr. Lacoste.
The first question I want to ask you has to do with your contact with Rosalie Bertell. I believe you said she was a nun. But as you know, she is renowned for her expertise in epidemiology and cancer.
Could you kindly describe your contact, your conversations and your relationship with Rosalie Bertell?
As an Individual
It's quite simple.
Unfortunately, Rosalie Bertell is no longer alive, but her team continues to do her work. They are continuing her research. I had the opportunity to communicate with her by email. I wrote to her, and to my surprise, she wrote back herself. She told me that she had repeatedly provided reports on uranium poisoning to the Canadian government, but no attention was paid to them.
As I said earlier, she advised me to drink large quantities of distilled water, precisely to slow the degenerative process caused by depleted uranium poisoning. She told me that when you first breathe in radioactive dust, it finds a home in the pulmonary alveoli before moving into the blood stream. If the army had given me dialysis within the first six months after my Bosnia mission, I would still be healthy enough to serve my country today. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. My blood was not filtered.
Depleted uranium, like mercury and the other heavy metals, does not eliminate itself from the body. Over time, it settles in the bone marrow. And that's when you start to see serious effects on the immune system and the reproductive system. I told her that I used to be fertile, that I had, in fact, impregnated someone, but that I was now completely and irreversibly sterile. I asked her if she thought my sterility could be attributed solely to uranium, and she said yes. She even said that contaminated regions like Iraq had tremendous birth-related problems.
She told me that the abnormally high number of cancer and leukemia cases in Sarajevo could also be attributed to uranium. She said that depleted uranium warheads are extremely dangerous as they make their way to the ground, even if they don't explode. When uranium is in the ambient air—and Dr. Morisset's report makes no mention of this—it has a very high level of corrosion. It corrodes very quickly and the metal turns into dust fast. That radioactive dust can then travel wherever the wind blows. It just so happened that I breathed in that dust.
When I asked her why I was more infected than others, her answer was that even though four people may drink six beers each, they all have different levels of alcohol contamination. Unfortunately, I have a delicate constitution as far as radioactivity goes; I react more strongly than others. It does more damage to my system than theirs. She also told me that, because I had been so sick in the jungle—I actually contracted either Lyme disease or dengue, or both, I can't recall anymore— it totally weakened my immune system, allowing the uranium to keep me in very poor health.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
I will ask my next question in English.
Mr. Lacoste, in your opening remarks, you talked about the importance of the benefit of the doubt. This isn't a question, but I want you to know, sir, that this committee has done a study into the workings of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. The Liberal Party wrote a minority report—a report that wasn't accepted by the majority of the committee—that indicated that the biggest problem with the veterans claim process right through to the appeal level is the application of the benefit of the doubt. We put forward the view that the bar needs to be lowered.
What I want you to know, sir, is that I've enlisted Senator Dallaire to help me with this effort. We're going to try to get the benefit of the doubt to have some real meaning. Okay? That's not a question. I just want you to know that.
Is that it?
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
We're well over time.
Thank you. That was just a comment, Mr. Lacoste. You don't necessarily have to comment.
Now we will move on to Mr. Hayes, please, for five minutes.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Lacoste, welcome.
I just want to say that I've only been on this committee since September, and my observation thus far is that this committee cares very much for its veterans. I want you to know that up front. My father had a 36-year career. One sister, 15 years. The other sister, 10 years. My brother-in-law, 20 years in the military. I care about veterans and I care about your concerns. All of this committee does. I just want you to know that up front.
I want to get a sense of your military history. You spoke about it a bit. I just want to know exactly when you started and where you were deployed, chronologically with the dates so I can really understand that.
As an Individual
I joined the armed forces in 1991 because I wanted to go to Iraq. I wanted to do my patriotic duty. I hadn't finished school, so from 1991 to 1993, I was initially a reservist with the Fusiliers Mont-Royal.
In 1993, I was transferred to the Royal 22e Régiment. As a reservist, my military abilities were such that in less than two years, I trained to become a master corporal and came in second. So normally I would be promoted within a year.
I then took, infantry soldier classes in the regular forces, with merit. I was at the top of the class. When I underwent physical testing, my level was high. I was the third fastest 10k runner in the country. I was a serious athlete. I was training to be a good soldier. I didn't do anything halfway. When I got to the battalion, my master warrant officer was an incredibly impressive guy. His nickname was “the Viking”. When I was just a young soldier on the parade square, he told me that I would do biathlons. In a biathlon, you cross-country ski and you shoot a rifle. I'd never skied in my life. But off I went to compete in biathlons.
My first few years in the army were wonderful. I competed in international contests all over the world. I did all kinds of competitions, shooting, running, skiing and so on. Anytime a sporting event was being held, I was there. If you have access to the newspaper Adsum, you'll see that I won a lot of medals. I earned them with much confidence.
Unfortunately, when I was skiing, I would watch my colleagues training to go to war, and it made me jealous. When my unit was about to leave for Bosnia, my assistant told me they needed snipers. I was tested and I can tell you that, with a precision rifle up to a distance of 1.8 kilometres, my margin of error was 4 inches. So I was quite valuable in the theatre of operations.
I am under oath, so I can say anything, is that right? I am asking.
Conservative
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Mr. Lacoste, just to interrupt for a second.
Anything you say in this room is protected by parliamentary committee rules, just to let you know.
Feel free to speak freely with all of us.
As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize in advance to anyone who may be offended by my comments.
I have a real Aryan face. I was partnered with a Canadian soldier of Croatian background. We did a lot of undercover work. I dressed in civilian clothes a number of times, and we had to walk around certain areas to get to know certain faces, conduct passive recce missions, and so on. So I walked around a lot, I stole vehicles, weapons and equipment from other armies. I had to dress as a soldier of the other armies and infiltrated the camps. But I could not say exactly where I went when it was not what I saw. It was very vague. I walked a lot . We did not always have maps and we did not go to the nicest of places.
At the same time as these missions, I had my normal soldier duties. When we were assigned to certain duties and the warrant officer came to tell us that he needed "two reliable guys", we knew what was waiting for us. Officially, we were on vacation or on sick leave, and nothing we did was ever recorded.
When we opened up Titov Drvar, I had the worst experience of my life. Our resupply convoys were attacked and logistics personnel were taken hostage. So, it was winter, and we had no more supplies. At one point, the warrant officer asked for his "two reliable guys" to go find food to feed the platoon for at least a month and a half, given that Canada could no longer supply us with food. Horrible things had to be done and we had to go places that I prefer not to remember anymore.
I'm sorry for getting emotional.
Coincidentally, after the Bosnia mission, I was asked to join the airborne unit, since I had perfectly fulfilled my soldier work. Reading between the lines, you can see that, in Bosnia, I went from child to soldier fairly quickly.
Then, going with parachutists, I loved that. I changed a lot. I learned about Joint Task Force Two. I started training body and soul to get into the special forces. I took part in the special forces selection, and it went very well. Keep in mind that when I was in the reserves, I was promoted to master corporal and sergeant. Before leaving, the major told me that if I wanted to, I could get into Joint Task Force Two, but that he needed me in East Timor. So I agreed to be involved in the mission because I felt that was the best way I could serve my country. However, I had one condition: on my return from East Timor, he had to let me join Joint Task Force Two. The major promised.
We went to East Timor in 1999. When we arrived in Australia, the Australian military didn't even know we were showing up. We spent some time at a military camp in Darwin, Australia, and eventually went through and had a naval landing. It was very funny because it was the first time the Canadians had done a naval landing since the Korean War. We did not have any experience in that. We did it and expected to be attacked. When we arrived on the beach, journalists were waiting for us and were filming. We knew that there wasn't much danger. So we got up, gave ourselves a shake and continued our work. The East Timor mission was fairly passive. The worst attack was when a fisherman attacked with a spear. It didn't get very far.
The most difficult thing in East Timor was searching refugee camps. Full searches had to be done of men, children, babies. Weapons were sometimes hidden in dead babies and other similarly sickening things. It made me feel sick, but we did it.
We also had to bring people back home. When the soldiers got out of the trucks with a 12-year-old girl or younger children, they looked for the adult, but no, there were no adults. They had to leave children alone in the jungle, left to their fate. Humanly speaking, I swear that, at that moment, you feel powerless.
While I was in the jungle, I did not know what was going on. I was stung on the finger by an insect. My finger became paralyzed. Then my neck and my body became completely paralyzed. I lost 35 pounds of muscle in nine days. After that, I was a dead weight, a burden on my platoon.
A few days later, I wasn't even able to take care of myself, to butter my toast and feed myself. My friends had to spoon-feed me because I couldn't use my hands anymore.
The doctor told me that if I continued to pretend to be sick, he would send me back to Canada. Listen, no one can pretend to lose 35 pounds of muscle. So, I was sent back to Canada. I was extremely humiliated because the military authorities said there was nothing wrong with me. I was judged by my comrades in arms. Fortunately, I have friends who are doctors who discovered that I had uranium poisoning, which would explain all my health problems. As a result, I returned, with honour, to the ranks of the parachute company and told my comrades that if they were sick and had symptoms like mine, they should be tested because they, too, could be radioactive. After that, my pride, love and respect for my comrades in arms was renewed.
I was then released for medical reasons in 2005, but I wasn't given a medical diagnosis. I was then entitled to the wonderful administrative machinery of the Department of Veterans Affairs. I was told to prove that my physical condition was due to my military service. Then, the doctors told me that I was pretending to be sick, so they did not want to see me in their office.
And there you have it: my military career.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Thank you very much. You'll notice we extended that time to give you the ability to answer Mr. Hayes' question rather fully.
As well, I will just let everybody know that Dr. Rosalie Bertell actually passed away, unfortunately, in June 2012.
We now go to Madame Papillon, please, for five minutes.