Veterans Affairs Committee on March 26th, 2013

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

All right. You made it very clear that your mandate did not include looking at the clinical records of veterans.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

Individual clinical records, that's right.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Now my question for you is, at the time you did your study, there had been a court case in Italy where a court found a link, and it found the link on a legal basis, between Hodgkin's lymphoma and exposure to depleted uranium and actually awarded damages.

My question for you, Doctor, is, one, was the committee aware of the court case, and two, did the committee dig into the medical evidence that was sufficient to satisfy the court of that link?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

You're asking me if we knew about two things.

Did we know about the court case? No. You won't find that in the scientific literature. I was aware, however, of something in Italy where a group of judges or maybe one judge had condemned some scientists for not having been able to predict earthquakes. That's the only thing I knew. But depleted uranium and its relationship to Hodgkin's.... I think it was Hodgkin's, wasn't it?

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Yes, I think so too. It's Hodgkin's lymphoma.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

No, we didn't look at that. The other question was did we look at the evidence that the judge had. No. Of course, we didn't know about the case, but what we did look at was the only scientific literature available and that was the Italian studies, and we looked at that very carefully.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you, Dr. Morisset and Mr. Casey.

We'll now move on, please, to Monsieur O'Toole.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you again, Dr. Morisset.

Regardless of whether you were invited by the clerk or appeared on your own behalf, I think it has been important for you to remind the committee that your team approached this in a scientific and unbiased manner, and that you yourself are a veteran. I think it's important to set the record straight, particularly when sometimes things have been quoted in various testimonies that don't rely on science and call into question your report. So I'm glad you're here.

It was interesting to note in Dr. McDiarmid's testimony this morning that the Baltimore cohort is perhaps the best ongoing study of veterans impacted by DU and they're all level one veterans, so embedded fragments of DU, and they don't seem to have some of the symptoms that some of the veterans we have heard from are suffering from.

Would you care to comment on that? Your report seemed to indicate that there may be some level three exposure, that it's highly unlikely there was any level two exposure for any Canadian Forces personnel, and certainly no level one. Would you care to comment on those levels and the fact that those in the level one Baltimore cohort aren't showing some of the symptoms that other veterans have suffered?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

Levels one, two, and three basically relate to the degree of exposure. Level one exposures are the ones which are most highly exposed, which have been very carefully monitored and examined over 20 years by a group of experts. If they haven't shown any significant changes at any level.... She mentioned that they were looking at another level of testing for very, very refined kidney damage tests. Even at that level, there is nothing conclusive.

To get back to my point, if at levels of very, very high exposure you don't see anything, then it's pretty hard to imagine that at very, very low levels you would expect to find something.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Finally, one area of agreement that we've had from our medical and scientific experts is the final conclusion of your report, that there are veterans out there suffering from chronic, multi-symptom disease, and that it's highly likely it's not attributable to DU but can still be treated.

We talked about this the first time you appeared. Does it impact the proper treatment of a veteran if in a large number of veterans experiencing chronic fatigue and other symptoms they don't have the same root cause of the illness? They can still all be treated individually for those symptoms even though there's not one overarching singular cause. Would you care to comment on that?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

It's a syndrome. I had mentioned in previous testimony that it presents itself in various different ways, and it varies based on the individuals. In some it may be chronic fatigue syndrome; in some it may be generalized pain; in some it may be poor concentration, and any combination thereof. There's a longer list.

In a word, the treatment is individualized.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you, Dr. Morisset.

We now move on to Madame Papillon.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Morisset, several witnesses who have appeared before the committee have told us about medical files or vaccination records that are missing information or contain very little information when they are discharged from the armed forces. We have been witnesses to the fact that the Canadian Forces have removed key documents from the files of veterans. In addition, information in the files have been blacked out.

How can veterans prove that they are suffering from such a syndrome and link it directly to their military service when the necessary documents have disappeared? That will harm the case of the veteran who wants to obtain services and benefits from Veterans Affairs Canada. In addition, if their vaccinations have not been documented, how can anyone know which vaccine a veteran had a negative reaction to? How can we know if it was simply a reaction to vaccines or experimental drugs that were given to Canadian soldiers?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

Is your question just about the documentation on vaccines and nothing else? I want to properly understand your question.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

When witnesses put forward similar arguments, I wonder how we can be sure that there has been an independent evaluation of their medical file.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

You are asking me a question about the reliability of the medical documentation of a veteran who appear before the Department of Veterans Affairs, is that right?

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

Yes.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

You are talking about missing files, files that have been tampered with and so on. I have heard this kind of testimony, and I am very surprised by it.

First, if any military personnel ever did something like that, disciplinary action would follow. It is absolutely prohibited. We do not change medical files.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

How can we ensure that such a process remains independent? How can we make sure of that?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

What do you mean? Who do you want this process to be independent from?

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

How can we guarantee, for both military members and Canadians, that when someone joins the armed forces and until that person is discharged, his or her medical file will be treated independently? That way, if the member becomes ill, from a vaccine or depleted uranium, regardless—

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

It is no different than the civilian context. The doctor takes care of a patient's medical file. The file is confidential and cannot be changed afterwards.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

It is an army doctor who—

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

Whether it is a military or civilian doctor, the person is a doctor. We are all doctors. The code of ethics is the same.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

Could you please comment on something Mr. Lacoste said? He said that his TD-60 indicated the highest level of radiation when the measurement was taken. He still has it. However, you said that the TD-60 was used to detect another type of radiation.

As a doctor, how do you explain that Mr. Lacoste's TD-60 indicated that his body contained a level of uranium 61 times higher than average?