Veterans Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2013

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Just out of curiosity, if there was no space in a long-term care facility, which in my riding happens with some regularity because there seems to be a shortage of beds from time to time, what would happen in a situation like that?

[Charlotte Bastien]

If they are eligible for long-term care, either in a community or in a contract bed or facility, and they are on a wait list for a bed, then they are entitled to the veterans independence program for the time they are on the wait list. We would provide personal care and assistance through the veterans independence program while they are on the wait list for a long-term care bed.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Is that the only purpose of the veterans independence program? What's the overall purpose of that program again?

[Charlotte Bastien]

The purpose of the veterans independence program is to assist the veteran to remain independent in his home as much as possible.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That was in part what Mr. Casey was referring to. The housekeeping services are part of the veterans independence program as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

It's very interesting stuff.

Mr. Chicoine, for five minutes, please.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bastien, Mr. Cormier, thank you for being here today.

You are the first witnesses to appear in the context of our international comparative review of services provided to veterans by Canada and its allies. Does Veterans Affairs Canada have a research service, and if so, has the department already collected data on other countries?

[Charlotte Bastien]

We will ask our research group what is available.

As I mentioned a little earlier, we are here to describe what we have in place. If I am not mistaken, your committee will be hearing from witnesses from other countries who will explain what they have in place. That being said, we will follow up and see whether we already have information about that.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I mentioned it because some people with whom I spoke over the last few days, were already somewhat aware of services available in other countries. They stated that it would be extremely difficult to conduct a comparative review. In fact, in some cases, there is no veterans affairs department, services are grouped differently and legislation may differ as well. According to them, it would be very difficult. Could you explain to the committee how this study could help you improve the services you provide to veterans? If not, do you believe it would be preferable to focus on certain services, since we have relatively few sessions for these comparative studies?

[Charlotte Bastien]

It is always interesting to find out whether other countries have adopted approaches we can learn from so that we may improve our service delivery for veterans.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you.

I have one or two questions about the Career Transition Services with which I am less familiar. Its goal is helping veterans get hired. I also have questions about the Prince of Wales' Operation Entrepreneur.

Could you please tell me a bit more about these two programs and whether those efforts are more specifically designed for veterans with a partial disability? Clearly, a veteran with no health problems will be easier to place. How specifically do these programs help someone who is suffering from a partial disability or perhaps something a little more pronounced?

[Charlotte Bastien]

First of all, a veteran has access to the rehabilitation program. He may have certain needs when comes the time to begin civilian employment. All of that will be documented.

We will also have to work on the type of job he should seek. We will have to think about the environment which will best suit his needs in order to help him, and ensure, as much as possible, that his social reintegration through that job is a success.

The issue of specific needs is not addressed by the Hire a Veteran program. The program is simply there to identify opportunities so that companies, businesses and organizations that are hiring and wish to hire a veteran can post their job offers.

However, if the veteran was disabled and had special needs, we would work with him, help him look for a job and offer him assistance. It would also depend on what is available, given his special needs.

The Prince's Operation Entrepreneur offers training and coaching. It is provided through two universities, Memorial University and Université Laval. The program is offered in English and in French. Regarding coaching, if there is a specific need, we can identify any obstacles or particular requirements in terms of training or coaching, and see what can be done and what is available to help the veteran move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much. That's all the time.

I had Mr. O'Toole next, but Mr. Lobb, I'll go to you for five minutes, because I don't see Mr. O'Toole.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the folks here today.

The first question I want to touch on is something we haven't heard much of in the last couple of years, but a few years ago it was a hot topic. It's the whole idea around the lump sum payment and how much it is.

First, can you tell us what is the maximum amount for the lump sum payout for 2013?

[Charlotte Bastien]

I don't know it off the top of my head, but I know it's more than $250,000. It is indexed to the cost of living. We'll get you the number.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Okay.

A couple of years ago when Jean-Pierre Blackburn was the minister, there was a lot of debate among veterans that they wanted to see this lump sum payout spread out over a number of years, almost like an annuity in some ways. Could you tell the committee how that's been received by veterans? Has there been a noticeable uptake by veterans choosing to take it incrementally instead of as one lump sum?

[Charlotte Bastien]

I'll go from memory, but if I'm not correct we'll make sure there's a follow-up response. By memory, the offer was there since 2011 through the changes that were made to the Veterans Charter, that instead of having a lump sum they could have it spread out over a number of years. From the data I saw not too long ago, I don't thing the uptake was that significant. I mean, there are individuals using it, but it seems most people prefer to get the lump sum.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Okay.

When we look at case management and how a case manager is able to do their job on the ground, the way I look at it is that you can have the best suite of programs in the world, but if you don't have the people on the ground who can make decisions, that can test the veteran's situation, it's really of no use or significance. I know that the people on the ground do a great job and I know there's been some changes that have been taking place over the last number of years to help deliver the programs and services to the veterans in a more efficient manner.

Can you tell us more about that and how you continue to evolve in order to deliver those services at the best level of any country in the world?

[Robert Cormier]

You're absolutely correct in saying these individuals are highly skilled. I think some of the changes we've seen in recent years are ensuring that we recruit the right individuals to perform these case management services, people who have the proper skill sets to work with a group population of veterans who are, in some cases, quite disabled and need some assistance and lots of empathy to reintegrate and to basically return to civilian life with as much support as possible.

Certainly, over the years we've worked hard at trying to streamline administrative processes, at trying to simplify them so that our workers are not buried in paperwork and have more opportunities to spend time, in person, with veterans. That continues. We've seen recent changes in that regard. I think everyone wins from those changes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I really want to get your opinion or feedback on one other question I have. Do you think this would be worthwhile when we're looking at our study? When you look at the number of veterans per case manager, I know there's an in-house ratio that you try to target. When you talk to other colleagues of yours from around the world—I guess, mainly Commonwealth countries would be a starting point—is there ever any discussion about that? Is that something you think we should look at further? What kind of value would you put on comparing ratios from country to country?

[Robert Cormier]

I think there's probably some value to looking at that, but these are industry standards that we'll probably find in most western countries that are quite similar. I think we're quite close to industry standards that we'll see in many other countries.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Instead of looking at the ratios then, maybe we should try to dig through it one more step and see what kind of red tape is in the other countries that we've tried to flush out in the last couple of years. Is that maybe a better approach?

[Robert Cormier]

Perhaps. Certainly, casework size is a debate that has been going on for many years in the field of providing social services in provincial systems and in other federal systems. It also depends on the kind of service we want to offer. That often will determine the ratio of cases per worker. In some models they offer very superficial services, which is not in our case, which means that caseloads can be quite significant. In other cases the complexity is quite high. In those cases the ratio goes down. The ratio of clients per worker goes down when the complexity is increased. It really depends on the kinds of services we offer. At Veterans Affairs we offer fairly complex services, so the ratio we're aiming for is, in my view, very adequate and certainly allows our workers to complete the work they need to do with veterans.