Evidence of meeting #14 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
I've signed a one-page form with the Legion and it worked out well.
There's surprise among many of the veterans when they start getting their lump sum payments.
Liberal
Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Let me come back to a pointed question. I'm coming to you, I'm your age, I've lost my limbs.
Now, Mr. Galipeau, we can only think and dream about it.
I'm coming to you and I'm saying, “Look, I've lost my limbs and I'm looking to get a lump sum or a monthly payment.” The fellow in Alberta, Major something, lost a couple of limbs and his private parts. What would you advise him to do?
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
If it's a permanent disability, there are definitely advantages to having a pension. If the person's able-bodied and in treatment and stabilized with some sort of mental health issue, I think a lump sum payment is a great idea if they're going to invest in going to school, starting a company, buying a house. These are things we see.
Conservative
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
These questions are for Mr. Laidler.
Welcome. Thank you for your service. It's very much appreciated.
You mentioned your program has been federally funded since 2012, and you thanked the committee for that. I want to get a better sense of how much funding you have, all told. Then based on that, obviously when we fund things we like to look at criteria and success rates.
Specific to transition, as your name suggests that's the focus of the program, I want you to share with us the number of people who go through the program, the success rate, or how you determine what the success criteria are.
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
Historically, in 1997 there was a lot of talk about post-traumatic stress disorder, so that's how they started the program, by evaluating whether this program was going to affect somebody's PTSD symptoms. Closely linked to that are the depression symptoms and their self-esteem rating. Historically, three measures were used to determine the success of the program.
Statistically, the decrease in depression and PTSD symptoms that took place during the program's development was very significant. In the last two years, by working closely with some of the researchers across Canada at the CIMVHR conference, we've started to move away from post-traumatic stress as being the only indicator, as we see it as just one of the issues that military people deal with when they're leaving the forces.
We've actually, I would say, seen tunnel vision around post-traumatic stress, to a certain extent. That's why we've moved to a more inclusive survey called the OQ-45. It's a standard program evaluation survey being used by Veterans Affairs. David Ross has been the champion of this survey. They have the funding there to do it. We've been using that. It measures not only somebody's general mental health, but also their relationship with their family, their satisfaction with their careers. Again, we've been doing those for the group, right after the group, three, six, and twelve months following, and they've all been very successful. I can say there have been clinically and statistically significant increases in the case of the OQ-45.
Conservative
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
As for the funding structure, we want to have 100 veterans go through our program in 2014. We've been expanding the program. It costs us $15,000 per veteran. Veterans Affairs will pay for any veteran who is their client, who meets a very inclusive criteria, I'd say, to come through our program funded that way.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Again, I want to understand the whole concept of transition. On the website, it mentions transition to aftercare service, and then there's—I guess this could be classified as transition—re-equipping individuals with the tools they need to move forward to achieving what it is they want to pursue.
What is the definition of transition to be able to say that yes, this was a successful transition?
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
There was a study done by Dr. Tim Black, our clinical director, trying to define exactly that: what is transition. It comes from a socially constructed paradigm that successful transition is what an individual defines it by.
Somebody may move from our program, not get a career, sit on their pension from VAC or otherwise, but be the soccer coach for their son's team and say, “I've made a great transition. I'm back to being a father.” Somebody else might say, “I need to get back to the workforce. I need to be making $100,000 a year. That's a successful transition for me.”
We work collaboratively with the veterans to identify their barriers. I'd say that for the majority of the younger veterans getting back into the workforce is what they are looking for, and not just a job, but a meaningful job.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Do individuals who have gone through the program have an opportunity to come back and be mentors at all?
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
That's right. We have what's called a paraprofessional role. Graduates of the program are invited to come back and help their colleagues through.
When I went through the program myself for the first time there was a veteran from the Bosnian era there who had been in the Medak Pocket. We were taught in the Second Battalion PPCLI that these people were revered as some of the fiercest and craziest, and to avoid them. Having him in the room and saying, “This is good stuff what they are doing here,” really helped me get the permission to start looking into my own stuff.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
You made one other comment earlier in your presentation where you said that they fall through the “gaps between their services and DND and VAC”.
How do we as a Veterans Affairs community prevent this falling through the cracks? What is it we can do to assist so that doesn't happen? How can we make things better?
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
I think this really comes down to the outreach, because most military people leave the forces and don't come back for services. I know many of them who have come through our program were people we found isolated in basements or withdrawn from the community. The only way we made contact with them is they happened to be a member of the Legion, or one of our graduates knew them from basic training, and said, “I wonder how that guy's doing. I'm going to check on him and see if he's struggling.” They've gone and knocked on his door, and ended up pulling him out, and saying that he has to go talk to this clinician at UBC, and introduced him to Marv Westwood or someone.
But 75% of our referrals still come in that way, this almost recruiting style of getting people to come forward for help. To charge a Veteran Affairs bureaucrat to try to do that is pretty unfair because they won't be welcomed.
I think the key is in the peer-to-peer system. Partnering with third party organizations like the Royal Canadian Legion and others that are here is a key to getting that gap closed.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr
Thank you very much.
We now go to Mr. Rafferty, for six minutes, please.
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you very much, both of you, for being here.
Mr. Griffis, I'll begin with you, if I may. You said a lot of very interesting things on indexed pensions and so on, but the one thing I'd like to focus on is your comment about no support or very little support for caregivers and spouses.
You started to tell a story about Mrs. Blizzard, but in your presentation you really didn't have enough time. I wonder if you would like to expand on Mrs. Blizzard and that particular case to give us all a clearer understanding of what you were talking about.
National President, Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping
Mr. Blizzard was air force. He has had several operations with respect to cancer. He's also a diabetic. They had to sell their home. They moved into other accommodations, very nice accommodations, but they moved into other accommodations.
Mrs. Blizzard supported him throughout his whole life. They have a wonderful family, and things are going along great for them, but with Mr. Blizzard experiencing several bouts of cancer, she's concerned. Her education is one year of community college, and she's older. She's concerned that it's going to happen once again, and that if Mr. Blizzard passes away before she does, then she'll be in a difficult situation. She wishes that be brought to the attention of the committee. If she had an opportunity in an earlier time to go to school, whether it be community college, university, or special courses, they wouldn't be in the boat they are in right now.
By reason of my age and my colleagues', it's reasonable we talk about that particular aspect frequently, because we lose members not by their moving away, but by their departing the scene. They pass away. They die. That's a difficult situation. In the vast majority of cases it's the male who passes away, and the spouse is left.
One of the spouses we have, her husband was on the aircraft that was shot down on August 9, 1974. She made things go for her life and for her children. She had the ability to do that, whereas Mrs. Blizzard did not have the ability to do that.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you for expanding on that.
Mr. Laidler, you mentioned a number of times—and this wasn't the original question I was going to ask you—the support you get from the Legion. Legions, of course, are wonderful support mechanisms, but Legions are not all created equal, and many Legions are struggling throughout Canada. They're struggling with membership, with being downloaded, quite frankly, by government.
I can relate a very quick story before I ask you the question. I had some veterans town halls in my riding during this past week when we were back in the constituency. From Branch 5, one of the women said she went there that night because she wanted to tell us what had happened to her the previous day. She got a call from Veterans Affairs in Brandon asking if her Legion could give this veteran, who happened to be a Thunder Bay veteran, some money. Something wasn't right.
Is that a concern of yours? I know we all speak very highly of the Legion and the work they do, but is it a concern that perhaps Legions are not receiving the kind of support they need to do the work they want to do?
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
I know the Legion is definitely very concerned about that. We've talked about succession planning and making sure we get federally funded to relieve the burden from the Legions themselves. They have the organizational structure that sees the poppy fund not being able to be used for any sort of infrastructure. Zero per cent goes to their administration. They bring in almost $16 million a year during that poppy drive, and those funds support programs like ours, which is fantastic, but also comes at the cost of, you're right, the branches themselves. They're often struggling. As for the support that comes to us, I think the money that would go to that veteran, it's not an option for them to use that to pay their property tax, or to repair their roof. That money is allocated for the veterans, no matter what. We have been working with the Legion, though, to try to find ways to engage the younger generation veteran.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you, Mr. Laidler.
You talked about the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, and quite frankly I haven't heard anything good about it from anybody. We have about a minute here. I wonder if you'd like to expand your thoughts on that.
Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
I think they made sense to meet the demand in World War II. I don't think they're making sense now. Just get rid of them, save the money on the positions, and find a different way to decide the compensation for veterans. That's why I've said perhaps the courts are the answer, but the lawyers in the room will know better than I whether that's a viable option or not.