Veterans Affairs Committee on March 4th, 2014

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

The committee has identified and adopted three core themes as we move towards the second half of this current review. They are as follows: care and support of the most seriously injured, support for families, and improving how Veterans Affairs delivers the programs and services of the charter.

We have invited you today to talk about your organization's work and experience as a front-line organization that provides for Canada's veterans, who are often the most seriously injured.

When it comes to operational stress injury, can you share with us some of the key issues you're hearing from your participants regarding the service and support they received from DND or under the Veterans Charter?

[Barry Yhard]

Most of our clients, when we find them, as I said, are homeless. The problem with being homeless is normally you can't make it back into the system for a number of reasons, whether it's mental condition, addictions problem, that sort of thing. We bridge the gap between homeless and the system. Normally when we get them back in the system they're looked after.

I guess that's where I'll stop that answer.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Do you have anything to add, Mr. Cousineau?

[Medric Cousineau]

Yes. Thank you.

The organization that my wife and I co-founded is a thing called Paws Fur Thought. We raise money and advocate to place service dogs with disabled veterans. By very definition, 100% of the people that we deal with are suffering from OSIs, primarily post-traumatic stress disorder.

In the year that we've been doing this we've either placed, have at the fully certified level, or in training, over 30 dogs. That gives us a cohort of 30 veterans.

One of the common themes, in terms of what you were talking about, is care for our most seriously injured. Many of the people that we deal with are dealing with very complex mental injuries. They're elbows and eyeballs deep in the mental health system, which unfortunately is beyond the scope of this committee. But that poses some serious challenges because oftentimes after you leave the military and you are a veteran, because of our training, because of our operational tempo, because of a variety of different things, we are very misunderstood in the mental health care world. That poses some challenges.

The other part of it is that, in terms of service delivery and support for the families, oftentimes these people that we're dealing with, when they initially come to us, are not capable of dealing with a lot of the complexities, the paperwork, for a variety of things. Probably the My VAC portal frustrates just about everybody. I don't know of anybody who has that thing working right. I know I gave up. I just called my case manager and said, "Send it to my wife. Whatever you want to deal with, send the paper to her because I don't get it."

I reiterate, in full support of what Barry says, that to expect people who are suffering from serious mental health challenges to behave rationally and follow a set of guidelines that would be laid out, you might as well try to push Niagara Falls uphill with a paper clip, that's about how useful it would be. It just isn't going to work. I think there has to be a real understanding that the nature of the..., especially the complex mental health injuries, really have to be looked at in terms of the service delivery model and how we make it more user friendly to people who are struggling within that system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cousineau.

I want to remind members of committee that I will stop the member's questions in six minutes, but I'm not going to stop witnesses and their answers. If they go beyond the six minutes I think it's valuable information for the committee.

Mr. Karygiannis, you have six minutes, please.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Cousineau, I was wondering if I can ask about your service dogs, sir.

What are the monthly costs for you to keep that service dog? Do you get any assistance from Veterans Affairs?

[Medric Cousineau]

As I mentioned earlier, currently I have an appeal at some point, based on trying to figure out if I can get the same care and attendance allowance as for a guide dog.

Basic monthly care is actually pretty simple. Depending on the food, you're probably looking at $75 a month. I have my dog covered by a pet care insurance program that basically covers veterinary care and assistance that I pay $43 a month for. Then there are other costs. One of the things to be aware of is that if a veteran is seriously disabled and receives their DTC, disability tax certificate, at that point in time everything that goes on, in, or around your service dog is a tax deduction.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What I'd like to compare is the cost of the medicine versus the cost of the dog. Is there a cost saving to the department because you have the service dog? How much money are you saving VAC because you have Thai?

[Medric Cousineau]

As a result of my service dog, my health care team was able to cut my antidepressant usage by 50% in one year and that is not an inconsequential amount. I now see a mental health care provider also 50% less than what I had been seeing them and that alone was $150 a week in savings. Because of the nature of the program that I run, I do know one of our individuals who, in the time that he has had his service dog, and this is in a six-month period, has saved the department $3,600 in visits to a trauma therapist alone.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

First of all, also let me thank both of you for the service to our country.

Would you say that we should examine the use of service animals and maybe this committee should undertake a better comprehensive study in view of how the service animals are your partners? They also help with your family. Would that be something useful to do?

[Medric Cousineau]

It would be more than useful. I realize that the plural of anecdote is not data but there's a difference between statistical significance and clinical significance. In the clinical significance, in every pairing of a service dog with a veteran that I have been involved with, there has been improved social functioning, a decrease in medication, improvement in the quality of their primary relationships with their family, and reintegration into society. As a rehabilitation outcome, that can only be deemed successful and something that should be pursued.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Yhard, would you be able to give us a number? What percentage of the vets that are homeless have gotten the lump sum? Would you have instances where somebody got a lump sum and after whatever use they put it to, be it to pay off debts, get to school, get out of drug addiction.... How many of them spent that money and they've gone on to be homeless?

[Barry Yhard]

We don't actually track or keep stats on the reason somebody is homeless. We get it through osmosis from talking to them. So I couldn't put a percentage on it. I wouldn't even guess other than to say, like I said, we don't track that. What we do is we bridge that gap. That's all we're there for.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

From the people you've talked to, be it 50, 100, 150, your guesstimate, how many would you say have received a lump sum and spent it wisely, or foolishly, and then they're out on the streets?

[Barry Yhard]

It wouldn't be fair to our clients for me to give you a stat right now. I have nothing to base it on.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Would you be able to accumulate those stats?

[Barry Yhard]

It's entirely possible but with confidentiality and the way we deal with our clients, in all likelihood I wouldn't be all that excited about disclosing it.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

We wouldn't want you to disclose their names. I'm sure this committee can certainly be interested in knowing the numbers. If you can share it with us, that would be something I'm sure we can find useful.

Going back to you, Mr. Cousineau, you said the lump sum is something that is not helpful. I was wondering if you can elaborate on that. I remember there was a situation where some comments were attributed to me and I'm sure my colleagues across the way tried to even do a fundraising campaign on those comments. I was told by Wounded Warriors that giving somebody a lump sum is like dangling a case of beer in front of a drunk. That's something that got some people excited. I'm just wondering if you can, in your sense, elaborate. Giving somebody a lump sum, is it helpful, or is it not helpful? Do we have people who suffer from PTSD hitting the bottle? I know that Mike Cole, who is a captain, said that he's seen the south end of a bottle—

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Get to the question, Mr. Karygiannis, we're at six minutes, if you want to finish your question.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

We're at five minutes thirty, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Mr. Karygiannis, I don't want to rule you out of order. I'm telling you, ask your question now.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Just the leeway that you gave the parliamentary secretary, do me the same courtesy, Chair.

Mr. Cousineau, sir, if you can elaborate on that...?

[Medric Cousineau]

The question at the heart of it is this in a nutshell. Is handing a lump sum of cash to somebody who is dealing with addictions a smart move? If you're dealing with active alcoholism, I know from first-hand experience that, depending on how you facilitate it, you can go through $60 to $100 a day easily. With pharmaceuticals and/or illicit drugs, you can double that. With gambling, the sky is the limit.

Many people with those addictions, especially the gambling addiction, are in search of a rush. They're trying to feel something. They spin down a rabbit hole trying to go... in ever-increasing sums, so the amounts can disappear in a heartbeat. I have first-hand knowledge of a veteran who sought me out in Halifax region. Because we have a casino, his lump sum lasted less than 30 days; it was gone. By his own admission, it was the casino.

Trust me, addiction is one of the known comorbidities to serious mental health issues. I can't implore the committee strongly enough: do not do that. It does not do anything for the veteran, it does nothing for the family, and it does nothing for our society.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Captain Cousineau.

Now we go to Mr. Hayes, please, for six minutes.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I really didn't want to pick up on the lump sum stuff. I have other questions, but I really need to ask Mr. Yhard a question on the lump sum.

You stated three specific cases. You said that in case number one the lump sum worked very well; in case number two and case number three the lump sum didn't work well. You obviously have data on lump sums that you don't care to share, but you shared those three particular circumstances.

It seems to me that it would depend upon the circumstances of an individual whether the lump sum is in his or her best interest. It may in fact depend on the level, perhaps, of PTSD that the individual is at in that stage of their life and at that particular time.

I'm looking for recommendations here and for solutions. What if there were financial advisers able to assist individuals and help them make a decision specific to a lump sum? Do you believe that is something that might work? Do you think that the choice should be taken away and every veteran be treated exactly the same, or do you think, because of different circumstances, that the choice should be available?