Veterans Affairs Committee on April 1st, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Sorry, we're eight minutes over already.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Afterward you can tell me whether the member should—

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

You can chat it up later, but I'm hoping to get us out of here by midnight, if you don't mind.

Everybody has gone quite lengthy tonight, and I know it's very interesting stuff, but I want to remind you that we are within a certain timeframe.

Thank you for that.

Mr. Lizon, please, for more or less six minutes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

More or less. Will it be more or less?

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Probably less.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming here this afternoon.

I will start with a comment. Over these past several weeks, we have been listening to different groups, different witnesses, and different opinions. We all try to search for an ideal world, and the closer we get to it, I guess the better it is. But to be fair, we also, I think, have to say that maybe issues that were brought by veterans groups and veterans to this government—some that were addressed—were not necessarily related to the charter.

There were some deep cuts that probably all of you remember in the 1995 budget that this government reversed, and it brought the benefits back. Therefore, this should also count as an action.

The question I have, Mr. Chair, through you to Mr. Forbes, is on the existing services under the charter. What are the main complaints you hear from your membership on the delivery of the services? They exist, but we hear that there is a problem with delivery. What are the main issues? What are the main obstacles on the delivery side?

[Brian Forbes]

Let me just address one particular concern that would be somewhat unique to our organizations. The greater majority of our organizations are made up of the tradition veterans community: World War II and Korean veterans organizations. You'll note that from the letterhead that is on our submission.

One of the things that has come through to us—and I may ask Mr. Henderson for his comments on this in a second—that I've noticed is that the government has attempted in its efficiency procedures to suggest to the veterans community that we've got all sorts of online services, “You don't have to actually attend district offices, you don't actually have to pick up the phone, just access us through the online services.” I have to tell you, and I'm sure this won't surprise you, that the greater majority of the traditional veteran community is not terribly friendly with the computer world. There are some who don't know computer work at all. Online services mean nothing to them. If you're an 85-year-old Korean veteran or a 91-year-old Normandy veteran, you are not too impressed with the idea of an online service. So that's one of the observations I might make.

I don't know, Derrill, if you have any other comments on that.

[Derrill Henderson, Vice-Chair, National Secretary, Hong Kong Veterans Association, National Council of Veteran Associations in Canada]

Not right now.

[Brian Forbes]

I think the other is that we are rather unique. We, as a service bureau in the War Amps,handle the War Amps applications, both modern day and traditional. We handle Hong Kong veterans claims, we handle war-blinded claims. We're not gaining as much criticism, because that's what we do, somewhat like the Legion, but there are situations with the NCVA membership groups where they're finding that they're not getting the kind of access that they traditionally got.

I'm not necessarily criticizing the closure of district offices because I know there was much more to it than just the fact that they were closed, but there is a sense that the government is moving into a progressive technology that they're not familiar with, let me say that.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Anybody else?

[Richard Blackwolf]

Yes. I personally experienced this, because it was brought to my attention. If you went onto to the Veterans Affairs site with the intention of signing in, on the left there was a choice. When you clicked on that you ended up in an area with banks: CIBC, Bank of Nova Scotia—everything was there except my Royal Bank. Now, I don't know why I would be signing in through a bank to get to VAC.

The other choice when you went out is that it asked you for your Canada ID card. So I went through that and had to work all through that to get a card number. I don't have a VAC account, so I couldn't actually follow it right through, but what I'm saying is that what they were saying was true. When you come onto that site to go on the Internet, what you're looking for there is your VAC number and your ID number and you're into the VAC site. You don't want to be brought up and going through your bank. I couldn't understand why anybody would design a system like that in which you'd actually be going through your bank or have to go for a government ID card. What we really want is to have a Veterans Affairs ID card to go through so it simplifies it.

That was one of the things. Now, who do we talk to? I talk to people all across the country. We check frequently with our World War II vets, of course, and our Korean vets about how they're interacting with the Department of Veteran Affairs. The people who are doing the best are the ones who come under both the Pension Act and the new Veterans Charter. They're doing quite well because they're getting both. That's why we recommend that there has to be a meld of those things, because they have both. They have a pension plus they have the transition and the training all available there. There are a few of them who come under that category.

So essentially that's it. I think when they envisioned the new Veterans Charter, they were thinking that these young people were all going to be computer literate and be able to jump on there and go through. Well, as I said, I'm fairly literate and the first thing I ran into was that silly bank thing where you were signing in through your bank. I would never do that. The other option was, of course, you had to have a Canada ID card.

What we were really looking for, and what should be there, is just being able to sign in to Veterans Affairs, period.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Mr. Lizon, your time is up, but if you'd like Deanna to respond, we'll give her some time.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Okay.

[Deanna Fimrite]

Sure. I'll try to make it quick, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Lizon.

I would definitely agree that pushing the online and digital access doesn't always work. I'm under the ago of 40 and I can't figure out the Veterans Affairs website at all, and I'm quite technically savvy when it comes to computers.

The other issue, which I'm sure you've heard before and which we get quite often, is that there is a feeling of—how do they say it?—deny, delay, die. The feeling from a lot of our members out there is that you're never going to get.... Your disability application is always going to be denied the first time. Ninety percent of the time it's denied, and then you have to wait and find out why it is denied. They say, oh, you need this. Oh, well hang on—that will take another six months. Oh, we need this piece of paperwork. You give them that piece of paperwork and then it's, oh, I'm sorry—we also forgot to tell you that you were missing this, and here are some more reasons.

So the timeline goes on, and a lot of veterans feel that the entire process is testing them to just give up. A lot of them do. They cannot handle the stress. They get the Veterans Affairs envelope and they don't even want to open it. It scares them. It throws them into anxiety, and a lot of them walk away from benefits that they rightly should receive because of the way they're treated by Veterans Affairs, as if they're begging for these services that they're rightly entitled to.

I think that needs to change.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you.

We go to Mr. Rafferty, please, for six minutes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for being here today.

I have a question that has just occurred to me that I haven't asked, and I don't think anyone has asked any of our witnesses. When we talk about the money part of changes to the charter, as opposed to word changes, have your organizations talked about whether a financial change in the charter would be on a go-forward basis or would it be retroactive to some point? What would you like to see?

I would think governments would not be very happy about retroactive, but have your groups given that any thought. I wondered, just quickly, each of you, if it's something that you've considered or talked about?

[Deanna Fimrite]

I can say it's not something that we've discussed certainly with each other. Our concern at ANAVETS about retroactivity would be just because you made a mistake previously, the veterans who were under that old system shouldn't be the ones to suffer for that. So I would suggest that we would, of course, like to see retroactivity in order to not discriminate against those who have already been through the system.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Okay, thanks.

[Brian Forbes]

I might just suggest that many of the changes we're recommending would necessitate sort of a change in, let's say, the income stream of the veteran. If we are looking for, let's say, 100% income replacement, logically one might argue you could go back. But I know that's fraught with danger. I know there are difficulties with retroactive legislation. We've seen that with assisted clawback. It's a very difficult thing to do. Equity suggests maybe we should in certain cases.

I thought you might have been asking the question—if you don't mind me answering another question which you didn't ask—about budget.

I stated that we're dealing largely in our submission with seriously disabled veterans, permanently incapacitated veterans. The budget shouldn't be a relevant factor. We have been confronted with that argument for eight years. The budget of the government will not sustain an amendment to the charter.

Can anyone really support that view in today's world, where we're dealing with permanently incapacitated veterans, seriously disabled veterans, who are suffering and are not being compensated at a proper level?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Okay, yes, thank you for that.

[Brian Forbes]

I'm sorry, I injected a question.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'm trying to get to other questions in, and I'm going to be cut off here.

Mr. Blackwolf, Mr. Burke, I don't know if either of you....

[Richard Blackwolf]

I'll defer to him.

Just to restate your question again, please.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

If certain changes are made, financial changes, should it be from a certain point forward or should it be retroactive running forward?

[Richard Blackwolf]

Well, it should be when the applications are made. If it takes 16 weeks, then they still go back to an application made or a...actually, they've introduced a second thing, right? You have to get all your paperwork in and then it starts?