Veterans Affairs Committee on April 8th, 2014

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

David, you've done that transition very recently. Do you have any more thoughts on how we could actually act on this bottom-up approach?

[David Fascinato]

One point I'd like to make is that the success I've witnessed has really been centred on collaboration between various organizations within that veteran transition realm. I'm speaking to Treble Victor, VTAC, and even VETS Canada, where I think ultimately the bigger-picture effort is changing the discussion, changing the focus of the debate around veterans in business or veterans in transition.

It's something that, speaking to your earlier point about stigma.... So long as we concentrate on all the negatives, we sometimes forget the potential for positives. Unfortunately, sometimes the centre of the discussion is more divisive versus more collaborative.

When there's division, as I experienced in Afghanistan.... If I had disagreed with my DFAIT colleague and my CIDA colleague, no one would have benefited from the distribution of assistance for the population. Instead, when we were more aligned and were able to come together and collaborate on those very important issues—everyone had an agenda, of course—we were able to actually have that impact at the end of the day.

Enabling those grassroots organizations, that bottom-up approach, and encouraging an environment in which organizations and people can work together towards a common goal of making sure that the generation that I'm a part of, the generation of young veterans, can succeed, that's really important. Because sometimes the barriers are ones that we put in place ourselves, but sometimes those are more easily dismantled than you might think.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much. Our time is up.

Mr. Gill, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank our witnesses for being here today and helping us with this important study.

As you know, we're obviously conducting a comprehensive review of the new Veterans Charter, which was proposed by Minister Fantino.

My question is for David.

David, as a serving member and reservist, can you elaborate on your experience while transitioning from deployment back to a being Class A officer?

[David Fascinato]

Certainly. It wasn't just because of the winter that it was a shock to come back to normal life. To elaborate a bit, I came back December 5 and on January 5 I was back in class. The last day of my technical contract as a Class C reservist was, I think, January 28, and then I was back to Class A service, temporary part-time contract work with the military while concurrently pursuing my studies.

It wasn't an easy one just because of the condensed timeframe, as you can imagine. Within 35 days I went from patrolling in southern Afghanistan, which is quite different from walking to school in the middle of January. Obviously, the transition itself was ushered along by my reserve unit, the Governor General's Foot Guards at the time. Generally speaking, it was a smooth transition. However, there are always things that kind of get in the way administratively, and prolong that transition. There were a lot of challenges with regard to medical documents, outstanding pay issues, and other things that were carried over from my time in Afghanistan, which had an impact and obviously caused a little bit of stress in my reintegration while I was just trying to get back to my life as it had been before.

Within about a year or so, everything was taken care of, and I would actually define that full transition, me really getting back into my life. When you're a reservist, it's a little bit different. It's not the traditional, regular-force experience. I did volunteer and kind of got plucked out, and then I came back and had to find an apartment, because I'd gotten rid of my apartment and sold all my furniture. That's challenging, but at the end of the day, it all came together after a little while.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Very nice.

Can you tell us also what type of support you received from the military, even in terms of medical or mental health, if any?

[David Fascinato]

As is the case with any other serving member, I obviously underwent a number of medical and mental health assessments on my return. Those started, actually, in Kandahar before I got on the plane, and I think within six months of getting back I had completed all my screening. It was at that point in time, at that part of my transition, that I exited, but I can speak to my experience with various friends and colleagues who had more prolonged experiences of that. Again, this is the challenge of being a reservist, that sometimes we get to slip through the cracks for one reason or another. Even in my own case, actually, my medical files were lost, but they surfaced eventually, of course. Those things prolong things and cause a little bit of stress, but at the end of the day, we're all checked out.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Did you encounter any barriers along the way? Do you have any recommendations in terms of how we can streamline the process?

[David Fascinato]

I raised the point earlier about communicating those services and supports that are available. It was sometimes a challenge, and I'd have to go hunting for those resources myself. I'd really have to go out and literally spend half my day sometimes trying to nail down various appointments, just to talk to someone about a concern or an issue, and more often than not that would just be upon my own initiative. I'd ask for assistance or support from various resources. As reservists, sometimes we just get pointed in the direction and told to go.

So communicating more effectively that there are those resources available and ensuring that there is a smoother connection as opposed to one that takes a lot of effort at times would go a long way to making sure that transitioning members receive the benefits that they deserve.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Are you able to give us an example of a barrier or sort of a challenge that you have faced along the way that you wish you didn't have to?

[David Fascinato]

I'll speak to a friend's experience.

He was displaying symptoms of PTSD and he was having a lot of issues just getting an appointment with a military doctor to talk about it. He had gone through the screens and there were no issues that were flagged, but after a certain point of time after the screening had been completed, issues started and symptoms started arising. It was then difficult for him to get access to—to just simply have a conversation with someone, not even a re-assessment, but just to have a chat.

It was unfortunate that it took a lot of effort and a lot of hunting on his part, and on my part as a friend to support him. We have this concept of battle buddies in the military so we look out for one another quite closely, and so I helped him get through that. It took a lot of effort, but there was a pretty massive barrier. I could speculate that it could have been administrative, it could have been operational, it could have been systematic in terms of the actual organizational structure that we were trying to get ourselves into, but it was a challenge nonetheless.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

Now Mr. Chicoine, please, for six minutes.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fleming, I want to ask you a question concerning the transition period you mentioned in your opening statement.

You said it would be good that there be a 6 to 12-month transition period before the military person is released to civilian life. Afterwards you talked about the possibility of sponsorship. You also touched on a topic I find interesting, that of administration courses. Not only could this allow a veteran to offer his or her services to a business that works in the area of administrative services, but this could even allow them to start a business. I am thinking of a number of veterans who experienced some unfortunate circumstances. They used their lump sum payment to start businesses, but may not have had a good basis in administration, and experienced total failure.

In short, it would be interesting if you could go back to this matter of the administration courses. Also, do you think that the help of a guidance officer at the very beginning of that transition period could be useful so that a member of forces could be guided toward his fields of interest?

[Derryk Fleming]

You raise an excellent point, I'm so glad that you mentioned that. I can think of a personal example where there was young soldier who had come back. I was his teacher. He came through the program, I recruited him. He went overseas, he was a gunner in one of the RG-31s. When he came back, he did get a lump sum, I believe it was in the realm of about $75,000. He decided to launch a business and several times I stressed, again and again, not to jump in head-first unless he had the skills and the knowledge to make that investment properly.

His business has failed, so even though he got the lump sum and the federal government did provide it to him and there was an opportunity there, the money was essentially squandered because he didn't have the skill set.

For me, who has spent a good part of my life training adults or retraining adults, to see that mistake made it's like a train wreck. You see it coming, you're trying to tell them not to do this, but they still do it. That business could have succeeded. He could have created more small jobs if he had the skills and the training upfront.

A lot of soldiers—and I don't think this is a surprise to many—have ADD; they tend to be very impulsive. They just do things, they're go-getters. But that sometimes doesn't work well when it comes to business because sometimes that go-getter attitude can end up causing failure. So when we look at bringing soldiers back from the joint program support units, having that 6 to 12 months all depends on the needs of the individual. Maybe it needs to be 18 months. For other individuals, if they're really in better physical and mental health, maybe it only needs to be three months. It needs to be flexible so it's not like a prison sentence for these individuals. But I really think we need to create synergy in our local economy with our training and educational facilities. Whether it's colleges, universities, or the local school boards through the community ed programs, we can deliver programs very effectively so that the resources that are being expended by the new Veterans Charter to help these veterans transition is money well spent.

But the training and the transition and the mentorship and the support has to be in place before we cut them a big cheque. I truly believe that. There's one other thing I think we should mention too. For those soldiers who are very young and aren't able to handle that kind of money, one idea I thought about was looking at having the CPP, since it's an infrastructure already in place.... These young soldiers don't know...for most of them, and I'm a former NCO myself.... So for a lot of them when it comes to financial planning, for the most part, this is way over their heads. So at least if it's in place.... The idea is that, yes they can access it, we're not trying to babysit them, but at the same time, have the supports in place so that those sums of money that were set aside by the new Veterans Charter aren't being squandered in the first 90 days.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I agree with you totally. It would be good to practically force a veteran to follow those courses. I agree with you that it would be essential for someone who wanted to use all of his lump sum payment to start a business to follow some basic courses.

Would the services of guidance counsellors be necessary in that regard to assess all of that, or to direct someone towards something else if the counsellor saw that the person had no aptitude for management?

[Derryk Fleming]

Yes. We wouldn't even need to reinvent the wheel here, whether it's through the community colleges, the universities, or even through the local school board. Most school boards have a business education council. You also have adult ed programs or community ed. These modules are already in place for the civilian population there. To have a veteran transition with support, we're not even reinventing the wheel here. But to have that opportunity for lifelong growth, to develop the skills so that we're making sure that we maximize their chances for success for transitioning. What it does is it creates better outcomes, it creates hope for the families, it's win-win all the way around.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

We're right up against your six minutes.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

You are telling me my time is up, Mr. Chair?

Mr. Fascinato, would you care to make a brief comment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Peter's got you well-trained, I'll tell you.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I thought you said I had a few seconds. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

No.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hawn, please, for six minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for being here.

I want to pick up on a couple of things. David, first you talked about the effectiveness of the screening. As you know, effects can be delayed for a number of years and we've experienced that throughout. Did you find your screening effective? It sounds like you did. But do you think there should be a sort of mandated screening within the first six months? Should there be sort of a follow-up mandated screening every year for a couple of years, or some increased frequency?

[David Fascinato]

Absolutely. I agree with that 100%, and even beyond one's technical service in the military as well. I believe there should be as much support as possible to individual members who have, for whatever reason or cause, that they went overseas.... They deserve the support at the other end. Whether they stay in the military or leave it the next day, I believe quite firmly that support should not cease, and that sort of screening would also go a long way towards picking up, as I mentioned before, certain aspects of operational stress injuries or post-traumatic stress disorder that might appear afterwards.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Screening as a veteran carrying on.

[David Fascinato]

Yes.