Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 24th, 2015

[Sgt Jamie MacIntyre]

Soldier On basically sends out an e-mail to everybody they can possibly get to through the military chain of command and anybody who has been on the Soldier On website who basically put their e-mail address in to say they would like to receive updates on anything Soldier On has coming up. We try to get the information out to as large number of people as possible.

To speak to the therapeutic aspect of it, being with the guys and spending so much time with them there is very free and to have open conversation with other people about things I'm going through. We all have different injuries, different styles of injuries. You can connect and talk about your injuries, your time in the hospital. There are big discussions on types of medication you're on and how it affects you. These are the types of conversations I generally wouldn't have with other people or other soldiers who haven't experienced similar things as I have.

In that aspect you're in an environment that you feel is less judgmental. You could be in an environment that is less judgmental but when you're in with a bunch of other ill and injured soldiers, most of them going through very similar situations as yourself, you end up feeling as though it's a very safe environment. You can speak openly and freely with them, usually connecting for the most part even with people with vastly different injuries. You're connecting and you have very similar stories. In that aspect, it is invaluable, really.

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

It's hard to parse out individual costs, but the costs overall on average are about $3,000 per person for this 10-day event. That includes the registration itself for the event. It's only about 80 euros per person, depending on the exchange rate, whatever that might work out to. There are minor accommodation costs. Again, the Dutch are very good hosts. They don't charge us very much for rations and quarters while we're in the camp. Then there are the travel costs. Again, we have an Airbus going anyway, so we take as many people as we can take on that plane. The costs aren't that prohibitive, I don't think, for an individual to join us. Certainly our guests are welcome. I think they just pay a small stipend for the registration, if even that; I'm not sure. Otherwise they just join our contingent and we cover the costs.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

When I'm not an MP, say, I'd like to march in this as a civilian and pay a fee and join you and go through the preparation? Could I do that and how would I do that if I live in Guelph?

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

It's tricky. Civilians are allowed to march, obviously. There are about 40,000 who do march there. It's a bit of a lottery now because the demand is so high. They will take over 50,000 registrations. Then they'll have a lottery to parse that down to the numbers they can take based on the ability of the route to handle that many people. They've had larger numbers in certain years, so they've had to restrict and cap the number who can actually participate because there is a risk to health and safety.

For a civilian to join independently, it's no problem. It is a problem in terms of getting in because of the lottery aspect.

In terms of joining with us, the drawback would likely be access to the military camp. Again, we tend to have individuals who we sanction to join us, i.e., the VIPs, but to have any number of civilians showing up, they would not likely be welcome in the camp. You would lose that synergy with the contingent.

We have had people sign up on their own and march independently. We've met them outside the gate and marched with them for a day. That's happened on occasion. But I don't know that this would work.

What I would say, though, is that locally, on the years where our team might be coming from somewhere in your riding, to get out and march with them for five kilometres or ten kilometres—maybe don't go too far beyond that without more training—that would certainly be doable. It's the same for veterans. I think locally they could get out with a team that's in training and march, again for a shorter distance depending on their physical fitness and their abilities. That might be one way to tackle that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

I'm just reminded that you had to order a 69-year-old off the march. What's the age of the oldest person who has actually completed it? Is it Laurie Hawn?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

He didn't mean that, Laurie.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Yes, he did.

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

Certainly, I am aware of Dutch people male and female who have completed over 60 or 65 marches. They started when they were teenagers. They are in their late seventies, I suspect even into their eighties.

Laurie, you might know more.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

The oldest was...I can't remember her name, but she did it 62 times. I think the last time she did it she was 93 and they ordered her not to do it. She was still going and they said, “No, you can't do it, because with all that experience, we don't want you dying en route”, because people have died on the march.

One year I wasn't there, but it was extraordinarily hot on the first day and two people died from the heat. The biggest thing is hydration. People don't hydrate. Soldiers hydrate because they make each other hydrate, but civilians don't always do that. Two people died on the first day so they cancelled it. But the Canadian team went out on the second day and marched anyway because they weren't sissies. They got a fair bit of shit from the authorities for doing that because the authorities had officially cancelled it and everybody was supposed to stay safe and stay home.

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

I think it was in the 2006 timeframe.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Somewhere around there.

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

We had one really hot day. There's a section of the march about five kilometres long where you're on a dyke, with no shade and no wind. You're just out in the sun with, again, thousands of people, single file. You're moving at about five and a half kilometres an hour. That's about as fast as you can move, based on the crowds. That was a sapping day, I have to tell you.

Again, that was actually one of the days that I think contributed to poor Colonel Rolingher's demise, because that day was the second day, and it was tough. It took a lot out of our folks, because they were on the road for almost 10 hours that day. That's too long to be on the road. You need to be in and out in eight hours or eight and a half hours maximum.

[The Chair, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

I didn't want my question to cause such a distraction. Mr. Lemieux has the floor now.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you for an excellent presentation.

For the committee members, the general and I served together on one brigade back in the early 1990s. Funnily enough, we've crossed paths in the last six months a number of times, so it's been good to see each other again.

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

Speak for yourself, Mr. Lemieux.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I speak only for myself.

I want to ask two questions, but before I ask my questions, let me reinforce this idea. Personally, I think it would be an excellent idea to have a team of veterans. Veterans range in age from quite young to quite elderly, and it might be a challenge to put together a well-balanced team, but I think there's a lot of value in that. I think it would be strongly supported by serving soldiers, because every serving soldier will eventually become a veteran. I think to forge those ties and to include veterans as part of this contingent would be a great move on behalf of the organizers of the Nijmegen march.

On the two questions that I want to ask, you mentioned that a number of interested teams apply, but only some are selected. Maybe you could brief us on the selection process. How does one decide, then, that these 14 teams are going and those 16 are not? The second thing I want to ask about is the training. You've hinted about the 1,000 kilometres of preparation, but maybe you could just walk us through some of the preparation and how that's broken down, perhaps in terms of time and miles. What kind of a commitment is one undertaking when one says they would like to go on a Nijmegen march?

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

Taking the second question first, training is a huge demand in terms of time. Again, it's the secret to success. You can go over there without having done enough training and it will be hell, or you can go over there, be successful, and enjoy the whole experience.

Depending on where you are in Canada, training will start as early as January in preparation for the march, which is in July. I know that on the west coast, in Victoria, that team is usually out marching in January. There's a lot of individual training that takes place in terms of general personal fitness, but eventually they come together as teams. There's a progressive period of marching, starting off with about five kilometres, either with or without weight. Again, you have to be carrying that 10 kilos, and that's probably closer to 15 kilos when you factor in everything else you're carrying with you. You gradually increase that over time, and at some point you'll get to back-to-back 20 kilometres. It's a sort of a check in the box that we're progressing well, that we can do that, and that's great. Eventually, then, we do back-to-back 30 kilometres, and then finally back-to-back 40 kilometres.

As I said, that's going to be eight or nine hours on the road each of those days, so there's the time commitment, depending which job you're in. Now, how MPs, if any of you can find that time.... Again, you really have to be dedicated, with great time management, I think. Even for a general to find the time, depending on the job you're in, it's very difficult. Our teams out in the bases and wings have a little more latitude, I think, although they all have regular jobs too. I think they get cut a little bit more slack to be able to find the time to get the training in, but again, it takes.... You'll probably do between 750 and 1,000 kilometres in total, and that's only to do 160 kilometres over there. But that 1,000 is a very good investment of your time.

What was your first question again?

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It's about the selection process among different teams.

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

Yes, the selection process is a tough thing. I've had to do it twice now. You get over 30 applications for about 15 positions. What we do is look at the level of participation historically from across the Canadian Forces. The aim is that each base, each wing, and each formation or each unit will have equal representation over time.

If you haven't been there in the last two or three years, your time may be coming up. If you have a unit anniversary of some sort, of some significance, maybe the 100th or 150th anniversary of the unit itself, we'll try to give preference to that. Again, we'll make sure that we have a balance across the army, the navy, and the air force.

We'll make sure that there is reserve representation as well. That one brings with it other challenges, because the reserve team has to pay for salaries. That adds to the cost, but again, we make sure the funding is available if they're going to sign up. Often, a small unit can't generate 11 people for a team, because in a small reserve that's very difficult to do. What you'll sometimes see is that a base, or a wing, or a local reserve brigade will form a team, and that will be a composite team from a number of different units. That seems to work out fairly well.

Overall, it's about making sure that we have proper representation across Canada and that on a cyclical basis each base and wing and the different units have the opportunity to go. Again, if they have an anniversary, that is really a big tick in the box for that unit.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'll just add a bit to the training thing because it's pretty open.

It's hard on wives. I would go home on the weekend—maybe it was just especially in the west—and she'd wake up on Saturday morning, Sunday morning and put her arm over and of course I would be gone for eight or nine hours.

The first year, because I didn't want to be lower than the average guy, I didn't want to be that guy who couldn't finish, so I did 1,850 kilometres in training, and the march was a piece of cake. The second year I did about 1,200 and it was still easy. The third year, because it was 2011 and the election got in the way in May, I did only about 600, and it was okay, but I really noticed the difference between the two.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Oh, really.

[BGen Kevin Cotten]

In the first year you'll find you're so nervous, especially as a commander, so I thought, “You have to lead these guys and gals, and you'd better make sure you're going to cross that line”, so I did every kilometre. The second year I thought, “Now that I know what I'm doing, maybe I can back off a little bit”, so I think I did about 750 the second year. I know what you mean in terms of getting that comfort level and knowing what you're actually participating in. It's very important.