Evidence of meeting #40 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was civilian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
Good morning. Welcome to the 40th meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.
Today we have a number of witnesses in the second hour, but right now, in the first hour, we're delighted to welcome Mr. Donald Leonardo, Mr. Tim Laidler, and Mr. Tim Armstrong.
I don't know if you know each other.
Tim, meet Tim.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
We particularly appreciate the help that you're going to give us today. What concerns us particularly is the transition from being a serving member of the armed forces to becoming a veteran.
When a Canadian Forces member is being released, there is a transfer of responsibility for the member from the Department of National Defence to other actors, notably Veterans Affairs Canada and the service income security insurance plan. The number of programs that support the transition of military personnel is large. Military personnel, veterans, and the public can therefore find the process difficult to navigate, and this can cause misunderstandings.
By studying this continuum of services, this committee, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, wishes to clearly identify the main stages of the process, the programs available to military personnel, veterans, and their families at each stage, and the respective responsibilities of the actors involved. We hope this study will help with a greater understanding in the overall process of transitioning to civilian life for military personnel. I thank you very much for helping us to do that by telling us about your personal experience.
Each of you will have 10 minutes to make a presentation. We all hope to learn from it.
The first at bat is Mr. Leonardo, the founder and the national president of Veterans Canada.
Donald Leonardo Founder and National President, Veterans Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the invitation to appear today.
I sincerely hope that I'm heard today, because over the past nine years the stakeholders have given about 486 solutions to problems with the new Veterans Charter. I think three of them have been used, so it would be nice to humour me once in a while and use one of my suggestions.
Today, the purpose of this booklet is twofold. It is essential that those currently in the armed services shall be fully informed of the steps that have been taken as they look towards their rehabilitation in civil life. It is of equal importance that prospective employers of these people and the Canadian public as a whole know what has been done to fit them for return to dominions of normal peacetime operations.
Canada has been making plans for the civil reestablishment of its service personnel since a few months after the outbreak of the war. Many of the steps that have been taken are in full operation. Hundreds have received financial assistance. Others have been given training. Those discharged up until the present time have given us a testing basis, and results of this testing have been encouraging. Canada's rehabilitation belief is that the answer to civil reestablishment is a job, and the answer to a job is fitness and training for the job.
Our ambition is that these men and women who've taken up arms in defence of their country and the ideals of freedom shall not be penalized for the time they have spent in the services, and our desire is that they shall be fitted in every way possible to take part in Canada's civil and economic life. We believe this ambition and this desire can be achieved. Results up until the present indicate this belief is well founded.
This was written by the honourable Ian A. Mackenzie, who was Minister of Pensions and National Health in 1944. This was the rehabilitation program, the transitioning program after the war, for one million Canadian soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen returning from the war. Somehow we left this behind and never used it. I've left a copy of the original handbook with the clerk if you would like to take a look at it.
Why was this successful program not updated over the years as the U.S. GI Bill was? That program was for those who served in the U.S. armed forces.
Mr. Chairman, I would now like to present two present-day scenarios.
A young man, after graduation from high school in 1991, joined the Canadian Armed Forces and enrolled at the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston, Ontario, under the regular officer training plan. During a four-year period, he received a free education, a salary for an officer cadet, and room and board. In return he would apply himself while attending the college and give five more years of service after completing his degree. He was then commissioned as an officer in the Royal Canadian Air Force. He was posted to 17 Wing Winnipeg, Manitoba, to complete his training as a navigator. He received his wings in 1997 and was posted to 12 Wing Shearwater. While serving at 12 Wing he was promoted to the rank of captain. In 2000 he transferred to the Canadian forces reserves and attended law school at Dalhousie University. He graduated from Dalhousie Law School in 2003, and returned to Ontario to practice law until his election as a member of Parliament in 2012. In 2015, he was appointed Minister of Veterans Affairs. By now you realize I'm talking about Minister Erin O'Toole.
My point to this little history lesson is to say that he was given every opportunity possible to become successful through transitioning within the Canadian Armed Forces.
Now, let's look at a different story.
A young man, after graduation from high school in 1991, joined the Canadian Forces and enrolled as a non-commissioned member. After recruit training he was sent to battle school, and after successful completion, he was posted to an infantry regiment. In 1992, while employed with an infantry section, he was deployed with the battalion to Cyprus. Upon his return from Cyprus the soldier was told that he would also go with the battalion to the former Yugoslavia UNPROFOR. It was the early part of 1994. Upon his return from Yugoslavia he was promoted to the rank of corporal. In December 1996 he again started training to return to Yugoslavia with the battalion as part of SFOR. He returned to Canada for a year or so in garrison. He began deploying, once again, this time to Kosovo. This was his fourth overseas deployment.
After his return to Canada he remained static with his unit until the significant and world-changing events of September 11, 2001. After 9/11 the world changed and once again he started predeployment training. He deployed to Afghanistan in February 2002. The soldier was present at the Tarnak Farms incident that occurred on April 18, 2002, when an American F-18 jet dropped a laser-guided bomb on a group of soldiers. Over the next nine years he would redeploy to Afghanistan two more times.
This soldier, after many deployments, was diagnosed with severe post-traumatic stress disorder. He was given a 3(b) medical release after 20 years of service.
Since his release he has continued to struggle with his illness from years of combat-related stress, and has been receiving treatment from a Veterans Affairs OSI clinic. After years of therapy he thought he would like to attend university and complete a goal he once had. The goal was to get a university education. Unfortunately, a fully paid four-year university education degree program for civilian rehabilitation for this veteran is not possible today through the programs offered by Veterans Affairs Canada.
Here is the moral of my story. The Canadian Armed Forces took a 17-year-old kid and provided him with a university education. They did this without reassurances of how this investment would turn out. A battle-hardened Canadian Armed Forces non-commissioned member, who has time after time given everything he has to serve his country, does not receive the same considerations or opportunities to become a success and achieve his goals after release.
I personally had the following conversation with my therapist: “If you were to become successful and financially independent, would you need Veterans Affairs Canada any more?” My answer was, “No.” She said, “So then, go and become successful.”
This question and answer is the reason why the federal government and Veterans Affairs need to create an atmosphere of positive opportunity. Every member of the Canadian Armed Forces who has or will have an honourable or medical release deserves an abundance of support and opportunity to become successful.
This is one of many times I've been to this committee. The last time I was here, I suggested that when a member is injured in the Canadian Forces and receives a medical release through MRV, the Medical Review Board, and CRB, the Career Review Board, they should not have to be readjudicated by Veterans Affairs when their medical release is imminent. That was my testimony the last time I was here. I hope it will be heard this time.
I also have some additional recommendations for transitioning for injured veterans.
Add to the rehabilitation program a complete paid university or college education, including tuition, books, and academic equipment. This would also include providing salary and benefits while earning a degree. If the member is totally incapacitated, this benefit can be transferred to a spouse. NCMs would then qualify for public service jobs. We all know that we've been trying to put through a bill for priority hiring. The only problem is that a non-commissioned member without a university education will never meet the prerequisites to make the same salary in the public service they're receiving right now.
I also recommend low-interest, zero-down-payment, guaranteed home loans for veterans, with more favourable terms for new construction compared to existing housing. The government loans money to banks at low interest rates—why not the veterans who have served our country?
Founder and National President, Veterans Canada
May I just say the last point, sir?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
I just want to warn you that I had given you the sign that your time was getting short.
Founder and National President, Veterans Canada
Yes. I just have one point to say, sir.
Conservative
Founder and National President, Veterans Canada
I also recommend veterans mortgage life insurance, because mortgage protection insurance could help families of severely disabled veterans pay off their home mortgage in the event of a veteran's death. There are many veterans who have been medically released who do not qualify for mortgage life insurance due to their injuries. Therefore, Veterans Affairs Canada should provide for this.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
I thank you very much, Mr. Leonardo.
You've noticed there's something wrong with my voice; there's nothing wrong with my hearing. I thank you very much for what you've done.
Mr. Chicoine, please go ahead.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
But I think we have other presentations.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
Before we get to questions, we will hear the two other witnesses.
First up is Tim number one: Tim Laidler.
Tim Laidler Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network
I'd like to thank the chair and this committee for inviting me to present again.
. I have been here in the past, and I'm happy to provide an update about the Veterans Transitions Network. This is a network that provides a 10-day program for veterans transitioning out of the military and into the civilian world. It was a program started at the University of British Columbia by Dr. Marv Westwood and Dr. David Kuhl in the Faculty of Education. The program brings veterans together in a group setting and helps them share their stories, ideally integrating some of their experiences, overcoming barriers to transition, and learning how to transition forward despite things like post-traumatic stress disorder.
I came across the program when I returned from Afghanistan myself. I served in a convoy escort platoon in 2008. Our primary job was to guard supply convoys from Kandahar airfield to the different forward operating bases in the Kandahar province. What I can say from my personal experience overseas and my tour is that we did our job, we were well trained for it, but what none of us really expected, including me for sure, was the toll that we would have to witness on the Afghan people from this conflict. In 2008, the biggest risks were the suicide bombings and the improvised explosive devices. Our vehicles were good at that time. We still sustained casualties, but for the most part, when the IEDs were going off, we were not being killed or injured at nearly the same rate as the Afghan army and Afghan civilians were. Having to go through the city and see the devastation and the lack of regard for the women, children, and anyone who happened to be out shopping in the market on the day of an attack was something that stayed with me.
Although we all bunkered down, I was able to continue to do the job, but I did notice when I came back from overseas that I would start to think about those experiences and start to ruminate and wonder if there was anything I could have done differently. There are all sorts of labels out there with post-traumatic stress disorder, operational stress injury. When I was 23 years old, coming back, I didn't understand what any of that stuff was. All that I knew was that I was spending a lot of time and energy thinking about the tour. I remember at one point a girlfriend at the time asked me if there was ever going to be a day when I didn't talk about Afghanistan.
So I was still high functioning; I went back to school to finish my degree. I was transitioning successfully by a certain measure in that I was finishing the degree, moving on into the workforce, yet there was something slightly different. It wasn't until I found the Veterans Transition Network that I really started to realize that there had been an impact and that I could start to open up emotionally again and become more of my old civilian self.
I'll talk just a little bit about the history and the lessons learned from the Veterans Transition Network here in Canada, and hopefully talking about this can help set a model for other organizations that are trying to innovate in this space right now and other organizations that are trying to help out.
Our story really started back in 1997 when the professors came together to address a need of many of the veterans coming back from the former Yugoslavia at that time. They evolved the program at UBC, iterating through different versions, trying what was working, and always evaluating it with academic rigour. The evidence was presented yearly at the CIMVHR conference, the organization that Dr. Alice Aiken runs. The evidence was able to be put up on screens, presented, and challenged by other academic minds, and the program ended up coming to a place where the final product was rolled out in 2012.
I was able to come here to the committee to present the program, and I was extremely excited to see that almost nine months later, after the committee had come out to B.C. to see our program, the Minister of Veterans Affairs took leadership to fund the program nationally. They joined with other partners, primarily the Royal Canadian Legion, whose BC/Yukon Command stepped up with funding, as well as the True Patriot Love Foundation and Wounded Warriors.
To date we've put almost 500 veterans through this program right across the country, actually bringing our clinicians into their communities, running the group-based program, and leaving the veterans with an opportunity to continue supporting each other in a sort of organic way.
This brings me to some of my recommendations for today.
When we talk about transitioning out of the military, there are two very different experiences, from what I found with the graduates of our program. The experience transitioning from the regular force where you're paid full time versus transitioning from the reserve force where you're paid full time while you're overseas, and then back to being paid part time when you're in Canada, can be quite unique.
What I'd like to state is that transition for reservists can quite often start when they come back from their tour. They'll come back off a tour, they'll have a week's leave, then they'll be back into civilian life. If they are to go back on tour again and again, they'll continue training. They might try to work full time with the military, but some of them decide that's the point when they're ready to leave the military. The actual day they'll get the release, though, could be three, five years later. So if we think of the transition only starting when they're leaving the military, that will leave a reservist in a three to five-year limbo quite often. This is something that I think we can look at how to address and try to get more of these programs and services further upstream. The reservist can't apply for their Veterans Affairs benefits while they're still in the military, yet many of the programs like the retraining program that's there, the veterans rehabilitation program, often don't start until the reservist is actually released from the military.
The other key point I want to make today is about the outreach that's still needed. Our organization brings in 75% of our participants using our peer-to-peer network. When we advertise our program through Facebook, through social media, through sending out letters to Legion halls, we get very people calling us asking to take the program. The hyper-masculine culture that still exists within the military community and veteran community, I believe, is a major barrier to people accessing help. There have been so many stories of young soldiers whom we've met who have never been into a Veterans Affairs office, who have never thought about going to see a counsellor, and yet when we speak to them for just five or ten minutes, you can tell they've really struggled a lot. Reaching out to those people, I believe, is essential.
There's an organization that started up recently called Send up the Count, which was using the peer-to-peer buddy system to check in on their friends. We've found that the most successful sort of model. If you try to use a psychologist, somebody who is not necessarily familiar with the military to do the outreach, it's often not successful. Nothing is quite as successful as a buddy reaching out and saying there might be something wrong, come check these guys out, you can trust them.
The last point, and something that was helpful for me in my transition, was the education piece. When I got back from my tour, about three days later I was back to the University of British Columbia to finish my undergraduate degree. It was really difficult to make that transition right away but I think it contributed to my success. It put my mind to work and at the end of that year, I had my degree. I went on to finish a master's in counselling psychology later on. Definitely my experience overseas impacted me. I definitely struggled when I came back, but I can stand here today and say I feel like I'm fully functioning. I'm very grateful for the support I got from Veterans Affairs. I know that's not always the case for veterans, but in my case, I was quite impressed by it.
I'll end up by saying thank you to this committee again for your advocacy on behalf of the Veterans Transition Network and for your recommendations. It's made a huge impact on my life and on many veterans here in Canada.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
Thank you very much, Mr. Laidler.
Now, Tim number two.
Mr. Armstrong, I thank you for coming all the way from New Westminster. Please enlighten us.
Tim Armstrong Director, Honour House Society
Thank you for the invite, Mr. Chairman, and committee members.
Yes, I'm from the city of New Westminster, B.C., the original capital of B.C. for a short period of time. There is a lot of history in New Westminster. I'm the fire chief there and on the board of directors for Honour House, the subject of the presentation I'm going to give you.
Honour House is a home away from home for first responders and military personnel seeking medical treatment in the Lower Mainland area of Vancouver. There is a vision behind Honour House.
Our president, Al De Genova, was watching a documentary on Trevor Greene. It's called Peace Warrior. Trevor Greene was serving on a peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan when he was attacked by a militant who hit him over the head with a fire axe. He was severely injured, was flown to Germany from Kandahar, went back to Alberta, where he sought treatment, and then went on to B.C. Al De Genova saw this, was touched by it, and said that something needed to be done for these veterans, that they needed to a place to go to, hence Honour House was born.
The vision was there. We raised money to get the initial capital. The mayor in New Westminister approached me to get involved and to be on the committee. It wasn't a hard thing to get involved with.
The home is actually on the same site where the parliament was supposed to have been in New Westminster. We bought the property, but the house was slated for demolition. We took it right down to the studs, more or less, and renovated the home. The British Columbia Construction Association donated up to $250 million of in-kind costs.
The total cost for the home was $4.9 million. It has 10 rooms, all with their own handicapped-accessible washroom. There are common areas, meeting rooms, and a common kitchen to give families the ability to connect with other families who are staying at the home. The home is free of charge for any serving military person or veteran needing medical treatment or care in the Lower Mainland.
Some of the fundraising efforts we have done include galas and Helmets for Heroes, a campaign that we launched with first responders—firefighters, police, paramedics and military—going out to the community with their helmets out and reaching out to the public for help. This isn't something that's commonly done. Military personnel and first responders are usually proud. They're used to giving back to the community, not asking for help, so this is a way for the community to give back to our first responders.
You can see in this slide that the house is very calming. We had psychologists come in and pick the decor and the colours, especially for veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress. I know that we talk about post-traumatic stress, but it is very real. In fact, when I get home, next week we'll be burying a firefighter who was being treated for post-traumatic stress and took his life last week.
Again, there is a need for this. Honour House is the only home in the country that's fully accessible to any military personnel, either serving personnel or veterans, as well as their families, and that's probably the key thing. It's not just for the veterans. It's for their families. We've had personnel stay there with spouses who were seeking cancer treatment. Most of the vets we've talked to say that it would financially cripple them if they had to come and stay in a hotel in the Vancouver area.
Again, we've had many success stories. Since opening the doors in 2011, we've had 2,000 night stays. Nonetheless, the house is very underutilized. We opened in 2011. About 10,000 night stays were available to veterans and their families, so we're really only at about 20% capacity. I know there's a great need out there for that. There's no charge. The problem is getting the message out. We're a small society made up of volunteers. We only have one full-time paid house manager. The grounds are maintained by volunteers. All the linen, the laundry service, the cooking is done by volunteers. Local grocery stores provide the food to the house for people staying there.
Again, we're underutilized only because we don't have the ability to get the message out. We've talked to different organizations. We go around the province. We haven't even been able to get outside the province. We've had some initial talks about creating another Honour House in Alberta.
We're seeing more and more cases of post-traumatic stress, operational stress injuries. We've been holding sessions in the house, where they actually come in and do sessions monthly in the house.
Master Warrant Officer Jim Sutton, who was kind enough to let us tell his story, stayed in the house free of charge. He stayed in the Lower Mainland. It would have cost him upwards of about $12,000 just for the stay.
Our goal is to get an Honour House in every province across the country. Right now there's only one in the country, and that's in New Westminster, B.C. We've been in talks with other communities, and there seems to be some interest, but it's a big undertaking. Our operating costs for the home are approximately $160,000 to $200,000 a year. That's all covered by public funding, fundraising, donated support. We have no federal funding whatsoever. We were lucky enough to get a low-interest loan from BC Housing. It's becoming more and more challenging just to keep the doors open. There are so many different funding initiatives out there that it is becoming more and more challenging to make even the $200,000 a year to keep the house operational, never mind trying to knock down the debt on the home.
For fundraising, we've had great support from different entertainers. Jim Cuddy and Sarah McLachlan have come out and done in-kind concerts. At our galas we do once a year, we raise between $200,000 and $300,000, which pretty much goes into the operating costs of the home.
The takeaway from this, really, is asking this committee to look at funding sources through the federal government that could help with operational or initial capital costs to develop these homes across the country. Veterans need them. The second ask, really, is to create a platform for communicating this resource to veterans and getting the message out in a clear way. Going around with a small group of volunteers is a hard way to get that message out. We've heard many stories where people have said after the fact that they didn't know this resource existed. They say they had to come down to the Lower Mainland for medical treatment and that it was a financial hardship for them. Other veterans who have stayed there have said that they would have been financially bankrupted if this resource had not been available to them.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and the committee. That's my presentation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
Thank you very much, Mr. Armstrong. If you don't mind, I have a question before we start.
How much was the house?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
How much did the British Columbia Construction Association contribute?
Director, Honour House Society
In materials and labour, we figure that it was about $2.5 million in in kind support.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau
Thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify that number.
It is now over to Mr. Chicoine.
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd also like to thank our witnesses for being with us today and the work they do in their respective organizations. It's extremely important work that is no doubt appreciated by members and veterans.
Mr. Leonardo, at the end of your presentation, you recommended a rehabilitation program that provides for a university or college education. Last year, Minister Fantino announced that the budget included up to $80,000 in additional assistance for every veteran. That appeared to be enough to cover the cost of a university education at the undergraduate level. What is your assessment in terms of that announcement?
In addition, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, a maximum amount of $5 million was earmarked to help, according to our calculations, a few dozen veterans every year.
What is your take on that announcement? Do you think it addresses your recommendation, or would you say that more needs to be done? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
Founder and National President, Veterans Canada
Thank you for your question.
The announced additional money—and member of Parliament Laurie Hawn mentioned a few times the amount of money available for rehabilitation—isn't for those non-commissioned members.
Tim mentioned he finished his university education, but he had already started it. For those who want to start a fresh degree program, it's not available for you if you are starting from scratch. If you've already started a degree program in the service, in the military, then yes, you can continue it, but not if you are starting from scratch. That's why I brought up the point. A 17-year-old joins the Canadian Forces under ROTP, and the government doesn't have any assurances that he is going to be successful. Yet a 20-year combat-hardened veteran doesn't have those same opportunities, and he certainly didn't have them during his career, if he has done seven or eight deployments.
That is why I bring this up. The opportunities were there, back in 1944, to do whatever you desired to become successful. Giving everybody these opportunities is going to benefit Canada and Canadians in the long run.