Veterans Affairs Committee on April 28th, 2015

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Absolutely. It doesn't create a statutory holiday so it wouldn't actually create a day off. It's interesting to look around the country because there are lots of different options. Currently six provinces and three territories have it as a statutory holiday. Ontario and Quebec don't have anything special, with the exception of the Ontario public service being off. But it's really interesting, in Manitoba and Nova Scotia they've done their own things. In Manitoba they've mandated that businesses be closed until 1 p.m. to give them a chance to observe.

Then, Nova Scotia—and one of my Conservative colleagues Scott Armstrong was here for the very first meeting at heritage—brought in their own Remembrance Day Act, which made it a day off for businesses but kept schools open. I thought that was a very novel approach because I find the best argument for not making it a statutory holiday is that kids be in school. But at the same time, even if that were to happen, I don't think we would necessarily lose out. I think there's an opportunity to actually gain something because more veterans and service members would be able to then come into schools and teach kids, and go to cenotaphs and services.

I think there are lots of options there, whether to make it a statutory holiday or not, but that power lies with the provinces. Certainly I think that would be where the push should be happening.

I'm going to go very quickly to Mr. White.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

You have about three seconds.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Okay.

Is the Legion actively trying to discourage the provinces where it is a holiday to remove it as a holiday since that's the Legion's position?

[Bradley K. White]

Keeping with the chairman's wishes, no.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you, Mr. Harris and Mr. White.

We now move on to Mr. Hawn of the Conservatives, please, for five minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank you all for being here. This is an important issue. It goes to the psyche of what it is to be Canadian and what it is to remember.

There is a lot of confusion around it, obviously—legal, statutory, what one province does, what another province does. I'll just tell you what we do in Alberta. In Alberta it is a statutory holiday, but the week before, the schools do full-blown ceremonies and kids attend. On the actual day, even though it's a statutory holiday, I can tell you, speaking only for Edmonton, that the ceremonies are packed. The Butterdome at the U of A is the big one in Edmonton. There are 6,000 or 7,000 people there—kids, parents, veterans, the whole nine yards. As usual in Canada, I think we do things 13 different ways sometimes, or most times.

Comrade White, given that now there are all these different practices across the country, how would this bill change it one way or another?

[Bradley K. White]

I'd like to start by saying that, first off, I don't think anybody challenges the idea that we have to respect and celebrate and commemorate our veterans and the sacrifices made on behalf of average, everyday Canadians. That's a given. It's how we do it and what are the best educational opportunities to get that done.

We firmly believe...and there's been a debate through the course of our history, right from 1926 all the way to today at this presentation, on how we do that with Canadians across the country. Some years it's yes; some years it's no. The position of the Legion at 2012 was that we do not want to have Remembrance Day as a national holiday.

What we want to do is work with organizations, with schools. Through the teachers network, in particular, and the teaching guide that we have, we want to provide an educational experience for Canadians to have an understanding of what remembrance is all about. We feel the best way to do it is to have the children in school.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

That's a perfectly legitimate point that I do not disagree with. What could we do in the wording? Right now the wording in the act is “legal holiday”. There is a lot of confusion around that. Is it legal? is it statutory? What does that mean?

Is there language that could be used in the bill, or in the implementation of the bill, that would clarify it one way or another?

[Bradley K. White]

As I think we noted in our presentation, even though you may have it as a holiday, it does tend to morph into a statutory holiday, which means that people will get the time off and go away. People expect it. It's kind of a semantical argument, in that way.

We worked with the City of Ottawa here to talk about when the stores could open in Ottawa around the national Remembrance Day ceremony. We had many debates with the city, in particular the large Rideau Centre, because it's a tourism area and there are a lot of people downtown. We were successful in saying that you can't open until after the ceremony is done and the observances have been paid.

Things do tend to take on a life of their own. People interpret it differently, regardless of what the meaning of the words are from the Library of Parliament.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Yes, and I don't disagree with that. There is no guarantee that anybody will observe anything, whatever we do. The provinces can do whatever they choose to do in this regard.

To Ms. Gallo, we have an organization in Alberta called No Stone Left Alone. I know that the Legion is aware of it. It's a great project. Ultimately they would like to put a poppy on every gravestone of every veteran across the country. They started off in Edmonton, and it's expanding in Alberta. It's done on the Thursday before Remembrance Day, typically, and we get hundreds and hundreds of schoolchildren out. The schools are very cooperative. They really support it. It's a great educational tool. It's a great way for schools to be part of the process of helping children remember.

I agree with Mr. Harris about the parents' role. The parents ultimately should be driving this. How we make that happen is another story.

Things like No Stone Left Alone are creative things that schools can get involved in. Are you folks aware of No Stone Left Alone, or have you looked at anything like that in your school district?

[Sonia Gallo]

No, I don't believe we've looked at No Stone Left Alone. We do work with Canadian Heritage. They supply newspaper articles, bookmarks, posters, and a whole bunch of material that we distribute to students in our schools.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Okay.

Going back to the Legion, there are differences in provinces across the country, and obviously Legions are across the country. How much difficulty...or does it give the local Legions difficulty with obviously the national...?

Dominion Command's position is clear. Does that give you any kind of fit when...? You know, obviously each province does their own thing, and Legions work with them as best they can.

[Bradley K. White]

As I said in the presentation, we do have that representation. It comes up all the way from the branch level to become national policy. That's how the policy is formulated at the national level. Regardless of where this goes, the Legion doesn't break the law.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Mr. Hawn, thank you very much.

We now move on to Mr. Valeriote, please, for five minutes.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for appearing today.

Ms. Gallo, I am the former chair of the Catholic school board in Guelph, and I share your feeling. I can tell you that most of the people I've talked to in Guelph share your feeling, and the feeling of the Dominion Command, and frankly the feeling of Mr. Blais, that this day should not—sorry, I won't speak for Mr. Blais, but the others—be made a statutory holiday, which would enable or in fact require schools to be closed and businesses to be closed.

In Guelph, we commemorate Remembrance Day in a remarkable way, but as I've said before, there's no amount of commemoration or compensation that could be given to our veterans to acknowledge their sacrifices. Knowing that it is not going to be a statutory holiday if this bill were passed, we should just elevate the day to that of a legal holiday, to give the proper recognition, as Mr. Blais said, to the sacrifice of our veterans and honour our sacred covenant to them.

Making it an equal day—not a statutory day, but as a sign of reverence, a holiday—would your position change if you knew that it would simply be elevated to a holiday without the requirement for schools being closed and businesses being closed?

Did you hear my question, Ms. Gallo.

[Sonia Gallo]

Was that for me?

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Ms. Gallo, if you knew that it was not going to be a statutory holiday, that schools would remain open and students would have to attend, would your position change?

[Sonia Gallo]

Likely yes.

We feel that students should be in school on Remembrance Day. Agreed.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

Now Mr. White, I have talked to you before at the heritage committee.

From what I'm hearing, you're compelled to follow the resolution that was passed at your convention, and that was that this bill, this movement, can't be supported because it could create a statutory holiday and people want students in schools and businesses open. Is that correct?

[Bradley K. White]

That's how we've formulated our policy within the organization, and from that formulation people believe that holidays don't equate to commemoration.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Understood, and I acknowledge that.

I'm not disappointed in your efforts. What's disappointing is that the understanding of legal holiday is contorted into somehow being a statutory holiday. I get that. I can see that misinterpretation. If we amended this bill to say “which will not be equal to a statutory holiday”, or “not require schools and businesses to be closed”, would that possibly change your opinion?

I know you can't speak for the membership because you don't know how they would have voted regardless. You can't predict how they would have voted if they knew it wasn't a statutory holiday. If it were clear that the bill did not create a statutory holiday, might that appease the concerns of those you represent?

[Bradley K. White]

If the delegates accept that position, then that would be the position of the Royal Canadian Legion.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Blais, I have never heard it expressed better, frankly, than how you expressed it, and that was that it has to be elevated so that it is considered no lesser a day of reverence than our other national holidays.

Would you and the membership that you represent agree that this should be elevated to a national holiday without the requirement that it be a day in which schools are closed and businesses are closed?

[Michael Blais]

I think it's semantics. It's clear. I've read what has been provided. The definition of “legal” is not obscure. It's not unrealistic. It is what it is. What's happening here is fearmongering. We're scared our kids are not going to come, that they are going to go to the mall. We're scared. This is about parents. Laurie Hawn brought it up right.

I have taken my children out of school at Remembrance Day to bring them down to the cenotaph, because that's where the spirit exists. That's where our men and women are assembling. I find it almost disrespectful that we're expecting veterans now to go to the school instead of going to the cenotaph to remember the fallen, their brothers and sisters who have died, who have sacrificed. As a parent, as a Canadian, I think we should have the right.

I'm not talking about “statutory”. I wish it were statutory across the nation, frankly, but that's not my decision. What we're talking about here is simple respect—respect by 308 parliamentarians to even it up, to make sure that Remembrance Day is no lesser a holiday. I would encourage you; there's an opportunity here particularly at your level.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Mr. Blais, thank you very much for that.

We now go to the parliamentary secretary, Mr. Lemieux, for five minutes.