Evidence of meeting #107 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was housing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cheryl Forchuk  Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute
Philip Ralph  National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada
Lieutenant-General  Retired) Stuart Beare (Chair of the Board, Soldiers Helping Soldiers
Karen Ludwig  New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.
Shaun Chen  Scarborough North, Lib.

February 6th, 2019 / 4:10 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

We heard from Sergeant William Webb, who testified at our last committee meeting. He's from Vancouver Island. He's a veteran who has a family, and he talked about the challenges of finding support, especially for veterans for family members.

Sorry, I didn't even thank you for your service and the work you do, because you do great work, especially in our region. I appreciate that.

Captain Ralph, I certainly see a lot of your team, the Wounded Warriors, on Vancouver Island.

Your organizations are doing really important work.

Sergeant Webb cited that lack of support for families.

There's Cockrell House in Victoria. They are really making a difference. They're at 100% capacity. They need three of those facilities at least. None of them are designed for people with young children.

In terms of the number of spaces, I have two bases in my riding: the Nanoose naval base and CFB Comox. We have a large number of veterans retiring in our area. We've seen housing skyrocket 50% just in the last three years, so already we have a homeless problem. We have veterans who want to be located close to their comrades to be part of that military family.

Housing prices are huge, and there's no strategy around housing veterans. There's no federal component that in the national housing strategy really deals with it.

We've heard about a project here in Ottawa. Their challenge was that they could get one-third of the funding from the federal government, but they couldn't get the matching funds from the province and the municipality. They were pushing back, saying it is a federal responsibility, just like indigenous housing.

I want to get your feedback and thoughts on that, because we are seeing huge challenges, and not just urban ones. I'm really glad, Dr. Forchuk, that you talked about some of the rural challenges, because they're real.

In terms of funding, do you see the federal government creating more funding, and should it be dedicated funding just for veterans and housing?

General, I'll start with you.

4:10 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

I honestly don't know the numbers. I don't know who's meant to....or who is providing what for whom.

I can see the positive consequences when communities invest in affordable housing. You can see it. When you see communities investing in emergency housing to soften the landing of people who are falling, you can see it.

So any investment in affordable housing and in crisis housing is an upside. That's not for the Government of Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces as institutions; it's an upside for individual families in the community context. The idea that communities, provinces and the federal government would collaborate in creating more capacity based on the unique nature of military service, military life, in kind with other affordable housing and emergency housing programs, totally makes sense to me.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Captain Ralph, do you want to speak to it?

Do you believe we need a national veterans housing strategy to deal with this homeless issue?

4:15 p.m.

National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Philip Ralph

I'll step back a bit. You were talking about families. I can say, from Wounded Warriors Canada's perspective, that the greatest ask for programs, our programs that are in the most demand, are those that deal with family relationships, because having a healthy family is the first line of defence and support for any individual. That's how our COPE program was born. The service member was getting great service from the system, etc., but his wife was not understanding how PTSD and other things were affecting his family. That's how our program was born, that and our couples-based equine therapy programs.

Anything that you can do to strengthen the family helps, especially in communication. That's why those two programs are ones that we're particularly proud of, because we tend to deal with issues, especially with mental health issues, like it's just that person. It's that person in community with everybody else, and if they're not dealt with in that relationship in understanding, then that all breaks down, and support, housing and other issues end up being very serious.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Dr. Forchuk, do you want to add to it? You talked about housing first and the importance of it.

4:15 p.m.

Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute

Cheryl Forchuk

We work with Cockrell House. I met with some of the families and women there. Cockrell House also provides rent supplements to allow people to access housing outside of that main building. That's also what happened in London. The scattered site seems to work best with a rent supplement program, and it's only where that program was in place that we saw families and women housed.

I agree about a national strategy. I would say this should be a general strategy for homelessness; it's not only veteran homelessness. I think the rent supplement issue is similar to some of the programs in the U.S. It's one of the things we need to take very seriously.

In the interest of time, I'll leave it at that.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

I know there are approximately 3,000 veterans who are homeless. I think having a strategy around that should be an utmost priority for the government.

As for the veterans' emergency fund, I'm sure that you're helping veterans access that fund. We heard from Sergeant Webb just how inadequate it is in markets, especially like the Comox Valley where you need first and last months' rent.

Do you want to speak to the changes or what's necessary to help veterans get into housing? Do any of you want to talk about that and that fund?

4:15 p.m.

Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute

Cheryl Forchuk

One of the things we've done in the city of London—and how we've continued with the rent supplement—is compare the cost, if it comes from a different level of government, of being in a homeless shelter with the per diem rate. It ends up adding up to over $1,500 a month per person. Add that up for a family of four. The city has found, for most of our veterans, that it's simply a matter of $200 a month in rent supplement. That can keep them housed versus $1,500 a month to have them in a homeless shelter or some other service.

One of the problems and challenges is that we're talking about something that crosses municipal level, provincial level, in terms of some of the legislation, and federal level. I think that's where a lot of the disconnect is. Who is saving the money? In this case, in London, it's the municipal government at this point that pays for that rent supplement, but when you compare it to the cost of someone being homeless, it's a bargain.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Mr. Samson, you have six minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you very much to all three of you for your presentations and for your service as well. It's extremely important information to help us as we move forward.

I have a couple of very important questions. Are you aware that the national housing strategy has, as a priority, veterans? Are you aware of that? Okay.

Lieutenant-General Beare, you talked about universality. We've made some good moves. I think we're getting closer, as you mentioned. Would you say that the fact that we brought in pension for life will help us track veterans? What we noticed before with the lump sum was that it was, “Here you go with the cheque. See you later, goodbye. We don't need to talk to you, you don't need to talk to us."

Do you have any comments on that, any one of you?

4:20 p.m.

National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Philip Ralph

Do you want us to have a comment on the pension for life? Oh boy.

4:20 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Yes, please. How much time do we have?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

The question is about tracking. That's what is important. It's the lump sum versus pension for life.

4:20 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

Here's a thought. The challenge with a lot of these things is that they're subjective and surmised versus evidence based. Also, we haven't had a lot of time to see how things play out, but speaking from the heart, from the gut, sustaining a relationship with our members beyond the uniform—one way or another—is always a good thing. As for how you sustain that relationship, well, pension for life is a way. It's not the only way, but it's a way of staying connected, including having an address. That's staying connected.

It goes back to this notion of staying within the family even after you leave the uniform. There's a lot of merit in asking ourselves what that really means and what that can look like not just in government programs, but in real community-level ways.

The last thought I'd offer—completely subjective—is that my relationship with Veterans Affairs should start the day I pass basic training—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

We all agree with that.

4:20 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

—so that somehow there is that automatic relationship. It doesn't matter if I serve a year, 10 years or a lifetime. If I never draw from a program or a pension, so be it, but I wore a uniform and I'm acknowledged as having served.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Absolutely, you're reconnecting and staying connected.

All of you talk about different links.

Dr. Forchuk, tell me, in your research, are there any links with other universities in Canada that do research with veterans? There's the centre of excellence that we have as well, and the OSI clinics. These are very important institutions or support facilities that are available.

What are we doing to link? I'm always concerned. Yesterday or last week, we had a presentation on how we have over 2,000 different organizations doing some type of support, but they're not talking and working together. Let's talk about links.

4:20 p.m.

Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute

Cheryl Forchuk

I agree with you a hundred per cent. I think we need to have those linkages across the board. I certainly have worked with OSI clinics. As I said, we have an OSI clinic at the Parkwood that also covers the Toronto-Hamilton-Waterloo area. We just had a consortium meeting last week in terms of research around veterans generally. Also, there's CIMVHR, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with. It's an important network around veterans research.

I think there are those networks, but the main area I found in terms of homeless veterans, particularly when we went out to these 10 communities, is that it was specifically about the homeless-serving networks and the veteran-serving networks not being connected. I would say that's probably the biggest link that's missing, particularly in the smaller communities, where often for each of those services they were having to go out of their own communities to make those linkages. Between those two things, those people were not talking. That would be one of the areas where I would put the most emphasis for a solution.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you.

Captain Ralph.

4:20 p.m.

National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Philip Ralph

One of the ways of making sure that some of these links carry on—and there are some duplications, of course—is to fill gaps. The reason we don't do a peer support group is not that we don't think peer support groups are good and necessary, but that other people are doing peer support groups. We try to do unique things.

What the research end often doesn't get, because it's not as sexy as everything else and people don't always know.... Research is the necessary piece to link how this works. In terms of organizations, I'll put in a plug, because I know that CIMVHR is up for its funding, etc. It is a vital piece of making sure that all this information is shared between groups, so that the research comes together at least once a year at the forum. People get into a room, begin to learn from one another about what's being done and can institute best practices.

Supporting research doesn't sound sexy, but it's important. It's a substantial part of our budget as well. All our programs are the subject of ongoing research, either by CIPSRT or by the University of Victoria. It costs us extra money to deliver programs that way, but in the end it also means that it's not about “hey, Joe thought it was a good idea, Fred thought it was a good idea and Phil thought it was a good idea”, but about how the evidence actually says it is the best idea. It's important to do those linkages.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

You're out of time, sorry.

Ms. Ludwig.

4:25 p.m.

Karen Ludwig New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.

Thank you all for your testimony today. This is very interesting.

It certainly connects with the other witnesses we've had before the committee. The continuity, I think, is also important, especially from a research perspective.

I'm going to start with Dr. Forchuk.

You mentioned that a non-veteran in a homeless situation would receive roughly $1,500 per month versus an identified veteran at $200. Is that right?

4:25 p.m.

Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute

Cheryl Forchuk

No. I'm talking about the shelter allowance. There are different numbers across the country. I'm using Ontario data here. The province mandates how much the municipality must pay per diem to the shelter, which is right around $50, to keep a person in the shelter. It's the cost the municipality pays the shelter to provide no housing, essentially, for a month, which works out to roughly $1,500 per month. As I say, the problem is it's something mandated from the province to the municipality, not federally. It's very convoluted.

4:25 p.m.

New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.

Karen Ludwig

Thank you for explaining that.

I wanted to connect that to veterans self-identifying. That's one of the challenges we've heard consistently before this committee—being able to identify who is a veteran while the veteran needs to self-identify. I was curious about that in terms of the compensation there. If we know that consistently, as you mentioned, 10 to 20 years after leaving, a veteran starts showing signs of challenges—