Veterans Affairs Committee on May 12th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everybody, and thanks for coming. We have a lot to cover today. We have three different organizations teleconferencing in, and we have one organization that is here. If we look at the screen, I can introduce the organizations first.

First, in person we have Canadian Veterans Advocacy, with Michael Blais, president and founder, and Sylvain Chartrand, director. By video conference from Victoria we have Dana Batho, group administrator from Send Up the Count organization. We have Mr. Matthew Harris, who is with 31CBG Veteran Well-Being Network. Finally, from Halifax we have Canadian Caregivers Brigade, represented by Ms. Kimberly Davis, director.

The way we'll start is the same as before. We will do 10 minutes. We will start with Send up the Count, with Ms. Dana Batho.

Today let's also direct our questions to each organization. If we want answers from all, let's pin that. That way, for time allotment we'll be good.

Each organization will have 10 minutes. We don't have to use the whole 10 minutes, if you don't have notes for it. I will give you a signal when we're close to time.

We will start on the video conference with Ms. Dana Batho from Send up the Count.

[Dana Batho, Administrator, Send Up the Count, Facebook Group, As an Individual]

Good morning.

I'm Dana Batho from Send Up the Count, a Facebook group that was started in December of 2013 in response to a spate of military suicides, one after the other, just before Christmas.

There are six admins. I'm the only one who's a veteran. I released in August of last year. I was medically released; I got a neck injury in training.

Send Up the Count covers all aspects of mental health for the military, veterans, and first responders. That includes depression, PTSD, other OSIs and things like that, relationship issues, and financial issues. We don't really discriminate as long as you're either military or a first responder. We cover any issue. It's basically a sounding board, a peer resource support group. We have a lot of resources listed. A lot of people find that really useful because they can come to our group and see this huge list of resources that they can access in one place instead of having to go all over the place.

As far as the group itself goes, it's apolitical, and we also have nothing to do with money. We've done this completely with no funding. It's literally just people helping each other, people who've been there and want to support each other.

For me, because I'm relatively new into the Veterans Affairs system, I'm still learning a lot of things about the different systems and such. One of my main issues is that there is quite a big discrepancy between what we're told before we release, by the Veterans Affairs staff at the JPSU and in the SCAN seminars and things like that, and the information we're told by Veterans Affairs after we release.

For example, I was told that there was a possibility that I might have to reimburse close to $9,000 of massage therapy that was misallocated to me—nothing to do with my fault—and I was also told before I released that all medications would be covered under my disability award. Again, just yesterday, I paid for some medications that should have been covered. It's quite a hurdle. That's a really big problem when you're already dealing with a lot of issues. You don't need to be told one thing from one side and then something else from somebody else. It makes what you're going through in general very difficult, on top of what's already very difficult.

Another major issue I have is that it can take a very long time to access resources, particularly for mental health issues. Personally, I deal with chronic pain. I was injured four years ago. I asked for some psychological help in November, and I'm still waiting to have an actual appointment with a counsellor. That's a really long time to wait for actual help.

Military members tend not to ask for help that easily, so when they do ask for help, they're pretty much near the end of their rope. This is something that I've noticed very much in the Send Up the Count group. People are pretty much at the end of their rope by the time they do actually think to ask for help, so having a four- or five-month delay between asking for help and actually getting that counsellor's appointment can be highly problematic, I'll say, for many people. It contributes to a lot more stress than is necessary and, in my case, a lot more physical pain.

There are things that they're doing very well. I can tell that the staff of Veterans Affairs are trying really hard to help the people they've been assigned to, but there are a lot of gaps in the system. My case manager retired and I wasn't told who my new case manager was even a month later, so that's a gap in the system.

Things like filling out forms online are very useful for me because I can't write anymore and I can't do a lot of things physically, but there are technology issues. One is that the forms will only open in certain browsers. I'm pretty tech savvy. I was working as an intelligence officer and a cyberthreat analyst for Transport Canada, so I'm pretty tech savvy, and if I'm having issues in accessing some of the online services, I'm sure other people are having issues as well.

Those are pretty much my main concerns for the moment, but also, in regard to accessing your case manager, the online system for contacting case managers isn't great. They apparently don't check their emails that often when it goes through the online system, and phoning them is kind of a pain because you have to go through an operator and tell them basically your entire life history before they connect you. There could be ways to streamline that process a lot.

As I said, I can tell that the staff themselves are trying really hard to help their people, but there seem to be a lot of gaps in how they are able to help their people.

That is all from me for now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Next we will call upon the Canadian Caregivers Brigade and Ms. Davis, director.

[Kimberly Davis, Director, Canadian Caregivers Brigade]

Hello, everyone. This is now the third time I have addressed you, one in paper form last May, and once last April.

The Canadian Caregivers Brigade was started because we found that families were struggling to locate resources. We don't receive any funding from any government or organization. What we have done is provide a website showcasing various resources for caregivers and their families, creating a one-stop resource site.

We hear from and work personally with many families, helping them navigate through Veterans Affairs. We are not here for accolades, awards, or medals. We are here to help improve the quality of life for families that are dealing with disabilities and make it a smoother transition for them. If they have difficulty locating something, we are here. We know how; we have been through the system.

I will give you my background, just so you can understand why I am so passionate about working with this organization and how long I have been living with my injured husband.

I met my husband in 1991. I was 17 years old. He was deployed in 1993 to Bosnia, when I was 19, at which time he was 21, with no rank and no combat training. Oh, sorry, he was sent to Quebec for one month to learn how to use a gun to protect himself.

I married him in 1994, when I was 20. I am now 43 years old. I have been dealing with his psychological condition for 23 years; that is over half my life. It has taken almost that time to get him to recognize he has a condition. When he was released, he was released normal category, even though the paperwork from the doctor said that he was being released for stress and anxiety.

I actually had DND overturn his release and release him disabled. I fought for that so that he could get his pension. When they are released without pension, they have no money and they struggle.

One of the issues we have found, which you will hear from every organization, is paperwork. The answer to the question of whether there have been any changes with regard to improvements in paperwork is no. Even though the number of pages in the paperwork has been reduced, the process of completing the paperwork is still a challenge.

Unless these veterans were clerks in the CF—and I know some of the clerks still have issues trying to figure out the paperwork—they did not fill out much in the way of paperwork. Now the department is asking them, as injured veterans, to complete numerous applications. I know; I have helped fill them out.

The other challenge with these applications is the questions that are asked. The quality-of-life questionnaires may seem like a great idea to gauge how the veteran is doing on a day-to-day basis. Unfortunately, these are not filled out by medical professionals but the veterans themselves, and they are being used to determine the severity of a medical condition. In other words, veterans are asked to medically diagnose themselves. These applications should be filled out with a medical provider in order to help the veteran understand the wording or the question in general.

That is the veteran's side. Now let's talk about the provider's side.

Believe me, I get an earful from my husband's providers. Physicians are being inundated with paperwork, which is monopolizing the appointment time that should be focused on getting the patient better. There are many physicians I have personally spoken to who are now turning away veterans because they don't have the time or the patience to deal with them. I can read right from a doctor's note on my husband's file. Very briefly, it states,

I am treating several patients with similar DVA-related issues and my head is sore from “brick wall” trauma!

He also says in his letter:

I am proceeding with a bite plate with the understanding that the DVA will see sense, in terms of reliving pain and saving themselves money. I do hope to receive the appropriate professional reimbursement before I am too old to enjoy it.

That is on my husband's file, and you are all welcome to see it. It is a letter from his orthodontist.

The provincial health care departments are now attacking providers who are treating veterans. I have spoken to a few family physicians who have received audit review decisions from the department of health in their provinces, and they are now being penalized for general appointments, such as prescription renewals, which are very basic.

The Department of Health is saying that they should be billing VAC. These physicians have now received penalties in amounts over $15,000 for treating veterans. Again, why are practitioners turning away veterans?

Let's talk about wait times. Which one is more important? Is it the initial application approval for health care services? What about the wait time for an assessment? These veterans and their families don't have time to wait. The interruption in health care services can mean the difference between less pain or more pain, between life and death.

Health care providers are filling out extension-of-benefit forms and waiting 30, 60, and 90 days for approvals to continue treatments, causing a break in medical treatment. I spoke with one of my husband's providers. They say that interruption in care can cause more harm to the veteran than good. Providers have told me that a break of more than 21 days can cause regression and require the treatment plan to start from scratch, so how is the department saving money?

The other one is financial security. Veterans do not have financial security, I can tell you that. Right now, I'm living it. I have two kids going into post-secondary education and I'm home. I'm a primary caregiver of my husband. I had to leave a $60,000-a-year job to take care of him because he was calling me from the roof of our house and wanting to jump off.

I have to find some way of paying for my kids' education, but that's not all of it. We also have veterans out there who can't apply for mortgages because by the time they receive any lump sum their credit is so messed up that no one's going to look at them. They don't have financial security. The lump sum payments that are awarded are like a lottery win. Anyone who has worked in the financial sector knows that when a large sum of money is given, the spending habits of that person match the amount of money they've received.

Under the new Veterans Charter, there are a few issues with regard to these lump sums, and every organization that comes in front of you is going to tell you that. One, you are awarded the lump sum. Now yes, there are options, and I do have to agree because I read it on the paper. You can consult a financial adviser; they will pay $500 for that. Yes, you can request that it be broken down in a monthly amount. However, the veteran can also say no to both.

Some veterans, when they receive this money, are in extreme financial distress. Sometimes they're on the verge of bankruptcy or have already gone bankrupt. VAC needs staff that can sit down—similar to a consolidation loan officer—and help these veterans get their finances back on track, because some of them don't know what to do. I'm dealing with one veteran whose wife left him after 40 years of marriage. He doesn't know what to do with his finances. He's gone through three cellphone companies already because he doesn't know when to pay or how to pay. It's something that he's fighting with and struggling with.

As the primary caregiver for my husband, yes, I had to leave my career, where I was making close to $60,000 a year. My income was there for my children to help with their education and their recreational activities, and now it's gone. As for that family caregiver relief benefit, yes, we received it, or I should say that my husband received it, because it's in his name. It goes to him; it doesn't go to me. I don't have a file number. It is for him to access support services if I choose to seek respite. This award does not come in my name. Even though we have a joint bank account, it's his money.

I'm going to refer to the report that I submitted to this committee on May 27 about a three-tier system for caregivers. There is one. The first one starts with DND. There is an attendant care benefit that is provided. A CF attendant care benefit is provided to those who are deemed caregivers of their spouse. They can receive an amount that is a maximum of $100 a day for 365 days a year, which amounts to $36,000 a year. Then you have the old attendant allowance, for those who are on the old charter. That can amount to a maximum of $21,000 a year—if they qualify. Then there's us, under the new Veterans Charter. I get $7,200 a year. Well, my husband does.

But it doesn't stop there.

When I get to the age where I qualify for CPP, or should qualify for CPP, I'll have no income to qualify for that. I've been without work for the last three years taking care of my husband. CPP is based on your last five years of employment on the date of application, not the last 20, so I don't qualify.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We're going to have to move to the next witness—

[Kimberly Davis]

The next thing is family—

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I'm sorry. We're through the 10 minutes, but we're going to come back with questions.

[Kimberly Davis]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Next, we'll call upon Matthew Harris, from the 31 Canadian Brigade Group Veteran Well-being Network .

Matthew, please go ahead..

[Sergeant Matthew Harris, 31CBG Veteran Well-Being Network, As an Individual]

Good day, everyone. First, I would like to thank you all for allowing me to attend this. It's very humbling.

As you said, my name is Matt Harris. I'm an administrator for the 31 CBG Veteran Well-Being Network.

I want to be clear on something. Our group receives no money from any government agency or department, nor do we want any. We're all volunteers. It's a social networking group that began by serving soldiers looking for other soldiers who may have fallen through the cracks. We limited ourselves to veterans who were located in the 31 Brigade area, stretching from Sarnia and Windsor through London to Hamilton and the Niagara region in Ontario.

It was a way for us to look after each other. We thought at first it would be 80 people or so. So far, it's expanded to over 1,200. We were the first to try this model using Facebook. Now it has expanded to all the other brigades as well, as we're witnessing.

A colonel and lieutenant colonel, our leaders, essentially started this. Then they added some sergeants, and away it went. I can only guess that they started it because they would ask, “How is so and so doing? He/she just came back from Afghanistan a few months ago”, and the answers were far too often, “I don't know”, “I don't know where they are”, and “We don't know what they're doing.”

With suicides in the news daily, we wanted to look after ourselves, look after our battle buddies, as we felt that no one else was at the time.

I have no doubt that there were people who did care and who wanted to help, but the feeling was there nonetheless.

Our sole goal is to help out veterans, whether to help someone move, comfort them, guide them to services such as the Royal Canadian Legion or health professionals, or set up an account, for instance. We can guide them to all these various places and help them with paperwork for Veterans Affairs.

Many believe that only soldiers can understand other soldiers. Soldiers can't be weak in front of civilians, as we are taught to be strong in front of them, to protect them, and to face their dangers for them.

“Leave no one behind” quickly became our motto.

I'm not here to complain. I'm just here to pass on some concerns and issues that some of our members have had or are currently experiencing. These are issues that we see on our Facebook page or that are being messaged to us privately.

I'm not a super-educated guy. We don't have malice towards any organization that wants to help us. I just want to give you, in layman's terms, some idea of what the real or perceived issues are.

An example I'll share happened only a few months ago, in February. I think we can all agree that a judge is an educated person with quite a bit of life experience. When a judge speaks, people listen. Now, this judge, while sentencing an ex-soldier who had survived an IED explosion in Afghanistan and ended up being dismissed from the military, told him to “suck it up”.

Yes, the soldier had problems and did something stupid, and he is paying for what he did, but the point here is what the judge said. He spoke to him about the Greatest Generation, a term used to describe, in part, those who fought in the Second World War. He went on to say that many of these veterans came home likely suffering from PTSD-like symptoms, but that they sucked it up as they returned to work, got married, had families, and lived productive lives.

Well, let's look at some of these numbers. Out of a population of 11 million Canadians, 1.6 million went on to serve during World War II.

Out of a population of about 36 million people today, only about 40,000 Canadians served in Afghanistan. Many of those went on multiple tours, unlike in World War II, when they went and stayed until the war was over.

As you can see, the brotherhood was much larger at the time those guys came home. They were able to find a job—there were a lot of jobs out there—support a family, and most importantly, work with fellow vets and help each other out with any issues they had. They understood each other.

When soldiers get out now, they try to get a job in places all over the country run by people they don't understand and who fail to understand them.

The organizations may have a “support the troops” sticker on their windows, but they certainly don't want one moving in next door or representing their organization, because they believe soldiers have problems and issues. Just ask that judge.

We believe that all soldiers have sucked it up in some very intense situations, situations I'm sure that judge has never encountered. Maybe it's time for others to suck it up and help these veterans.

The government, via VAC, has said that they want to set the standard and hire veterans. I haven't seen any numbers regarding this. Is it successful? Is it working? Are veterans actually being hired throughout the federal public service? From what I've been seeing, the answer is, unfortunately, no.

Some soldiers want to continue to serve, both with the Primary Reserve as well as through a federal government job, believing they can do both. There is a military paid leave in the system, so they can still go and train and not lose a lot of money, but that is not always the case. Even our own government departments that support the troops are refusing to provide military leave with pay. Once again, this shows the soldier that his support is now dwindling. Soldiers are feeling pushed aside, and they believe they must suck it up. Sucking it up means to shut up and bury your emotions deep inside, and that in turn appears as an explosion of uncontrolled vented emotion, because they get a little frustrated.

For veterans who have released from the military, as well as those with a medical release, who would like to go into the federal public service, we are seeing their pensions stopped because they are in the federal public service. It seems that their pensions stop because they go into the federal public service. I'm not sure if that's accurate, and I'm not sure how it all works, but it's something that we're coming across quite often. It doesn't seem fair.

Also, there is a strong need to speak to other vets and not get some impersonal letter from VAC denying their claim, as they feel that someone is calling them a liar and that their honour is being questioned by a civilian, or so it seems to them. Reality doesn't matter if perception is so strong that it becomes your reality.

This all comes together for the service delivery. A decision needs to come quickly with regard to benefits, without a doubt, but it needs to be more personal, with a phone call at the very least. Speaking with other veterans and having a good transition with the help of other veterans will help keep the issues smaller so they don't turn into an explosion of vented emotion. They deal with every issue, navigating the paperwork and helping at every stage, as it is the duty of the soldiers to help other soldiers and to leave no one behind. That's the service. I think a lot more veterans could get good jobs at VAC.

Something else that comes up is the perceived difference with regard to reservists getting help. I have class A reservists. They're part time, and as for the support and transition they require, I'm not aware of any class A reservists in a JPSU. Essentially, when the time comes, they're gone. If they were class B or class C, they get pushed to class A, and then there's no support for them. It should be one standard and one veteran, but they are quickly put on category and then released.

My last point is one that came up just recently. It's that the children of soldiers who were KIA in Afghanistan apparently don't get free post-secondary education. This has come as a surprise to many who believe that if a soldier is killed, his or her kids are provided with an education and taken care of.

We have one right now, a kid whose father, my friend, died in Afghanistan. He's struggling financially through university and is being told that he's not covered at all. As a matter of fact, the claim this university had was that they supported veterans' kids through some kind of donations. I think it was called “Project Hero”. They reneged on that.

Veterans Affairs Canada did give him some money, through quite a lot of jumping through some hoops—or, rather, it paid for his education; they didn't give him a cheque. It wasn't enough, but even that money is causing issues now. He got a letter from the Canada Revenue Agency saying that it was income and he has to pay back $1,400. There's something wrong here. He did call the Canada Revenue Agency and they told him to call back. He's a 19-year-old kid. He's the oldest of his two brothers. His brother is going to go through this very soon.

His mother can't talk for him anymore because he's an adult, and he's obviously frustrated with paying back over a thousand dollars to the CRA when he was told by VAC at the time of his father's death that his schooling would be taken care. He does not have a case manager. He should. He doesn't understand the system. To top it off, he has joined the military. He's a class A reservist like his father. He's a smart and kind young man who now finds himself unable to pay for university. His brother and stepsister will undoubtably go through this mess as well.

Adding to this disappointment, he and his brothers don't have any medical coverage. I don't know why that is.

I certainly hope that this statement is surprising to you. Was it because his father was a reservist, or class C? Was it because paperwork was missing? Was it because a mistake was made by VAC? I hope so.

Their father was killed by an IED. Their father was brave, dedicated, and honourable. He was my friend.

I know that like myself, he would be shocked to find out what is happening to his kids. If it is true that kids don’t get medical and dental coverage if we are killed overseas, then we need to know that before we go over so that we can properly plan for things like that. I certainly hope that this is not the case and that this will be fixed. If there is one thing that I would like to see change immediately, it is for the kids of the fallen to be looked after.

To the Canadian people, he was a hero. To most, he is a picture, a name on the wall. He was more than that to his kids. He was a hero to them since they were born. He was their father, who loved them very much, and now he is gone forever.

In conclusion, I will say this.

Soldiers have the ability to step off on that patrol or go on that mission knowing the dangers that lie ahead. They do it knowing—or rather, believing—that if anything happens to them, they and their families will be taken care of. If that belief isn’t there, then soldiers may be more reluctant to go, not because they are afraid—they are afraid regardless—but because they need to protect their families.

VAC is supposed to be the saviour of soldiers, not an endless quagmire of paperwork and seemingly impersonal personnel, which is likely due to being overworked. It is like the other members here.... Everybody we have talked to has been nice, but this is just difficult. When soldiers and ex-soldiers need help, like all humans, they need other like-minded humans to talk to; another soldier would be great.

That is all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Now we will hear from the Canadian Veterans Advocacy group.

Mr. Blais or Mr. Chartrand, the floor is yours.

[Michael Blais, President and Founder, Canadian Veterans Advocacy]

My name is Michael Blais. I'm the president and founder of the Canadian Veterans Advocacy. Today I am very pleased to be accompanied by our director, Sylvain Chartrand, who, I might add, serves on the minister's service delivery advisory group.

I want to thank you for the invitation to join you today to speak about the department's service delivery issues. As an advocacy group, we have become all too familiar with the problems plaguing the department as a consequential impact of accelerated staff cutbacks that ravaged the department and left the remaining staff overburdened and, in many instances, incapable of attaining performance standards established by the government as benchmarks of excellence.

Let there be no illusions: the department's ability to provide expedient and effective service has been degraded, and it deteriorated in annual incremental measurements during the previous government's zeal to, as some veterans would claim, balance the budget on the backs of the wounded and disabled veterans.

The consequences of these draconian staffing cuts upon Canada's sons and daughters, those who have selflessly offered uncommon sacrifice on behalf of Canada, have been profound, and catastrophically profound when one considers the tragic suicide of Master Corporal Leona MacEachern and the heart-rending note defining her unbearable frustration with a system that she felt abandoned her and her family in time of need.

Many, many others have also suffered, their voices of frustration rising as each year passed and more staffing positions were slashed. Until last year, prior to an election, their voices were ignored. Since then, both governments have taken significant efforts to redress the inevitable adverse situation created when insufficient manpower and resources are applied to serious, if not life-threatening, problems.

This week at the veterans summit I spoke with the president of the Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees about what I believe is one of the most important reforms: redressing the department's manning crisis.

The numbers are impressive. The prospective of having over 300 additional front-line staff actually deployed is certain to have a definite impact in resolving many of the service delivery problems that have been identified in reference to expedient and quality care.

Unfortunately, this is more than an effort just to staunch the bleeding. Our obligation transcends just hiring new staff. Training must be enhanced. New case managers and client service agents must have extensive knowledge of every nuance of departmental programs. Once they are so informed, they must be proactive on ensuring that every veteran to whom they have been entrusted is regularly engaged and that appropriate follow-up is conducted to ensure that the provided support has been effective.

Now, today we have heard from Matthew, Kimberly, and Dana about paperwork delays, about the difficulties they've been experiencing. It is not the client's responsibility to be aware of all the entitlements or supplementary programs that are available to them. In many cases, the client—the wounded soldier or the bereaved widow—remains clueless in regard to valuable resources that would improve the quality of their lives. The obligation is not upon them. No, the obligation is upon the department to ensure each individual is fully apprised of the entitlements and that they are fully explained and provided when appropriate. This has been an ongoing problem, and it is one that is often detrimental to well-being and contrary to the quality of care standards.

We also believe that performance benchmarks for staff, including regular resilience training and realistic workloads, must be implemented and upheld. The proposed case manager ratio is a perfect example: the provision of a realistic number of clients. The ratio of 25 to 1 is acceptable. What was not acceptable is case managers phoning us in the middle of the night, completely stressed out due to an overburdensome caseload, an inability to cope, and, of course, being subject to the frustration of their clients as veterans demanded the standard of care promised by the government. I believe that once these case managers are trained and deployed, they will have a definite impact on the quality of care standards.

Most recently, this committee has borne witness to the consequential impact of these cuts. These are the individuals, the voices of the wounded and the disabled, the voices of their loved ones. I found the testimony provided on May 3 particularly poignant. Listening at home to ParlVU, I was struck by the testimony of individual witnesses, as I was today: Deanna, Jody, Alannah, Jenny, Carla. The list is long, and there are more to be called. We must listen to them. I can tell you that as a veterans advocate these past six years, I have heard dozens if not hundreds of similar testimonials by veterans, spouses, their children, or the children of Korean and WWII veterans who are standing proud now for their mothers and fathers.

These are the voices that must be paramount in your mind during your deliberations. While I appreciate the opportunity to speak on behalf of veterans who are supportive of the Canadian Veterans Advocacy, I pray that the emotion, often raw and heart-wrenching, touches your hearts as it did mine. I pray that when these individuals who are called before you speak, their words are heard without reservation, resentment, or anger; that they are accepted with compassion and the understanding that they are not alone and their stories are not unique; and that our obligation to serve them now, as they have so selflessly served Parliament and the nation in uniform, takes precedence.

We must effect positive change. There must be a reset, not only through the infusion of staff but also culturally. We are the wounded, the disabled. We are Canada's sons and daughters, those who have volunteered, if necessary, to offer our very lives on behalf of Canada. There must be respect. There must be acknowledgement of sacrifice. There must be a level of care provided by the department that reflects this all-too-sacred obligation. Hopefully, the steps this committee takes in the future will restore the standards that existed prior to a decade of neglect and, as we work together and collectively to improve the standards, surpass them.

I will close by thanking you for the invitation to meet with you today, and I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you, everybody.

We will start with Mrs. Wagantall.

Again, I will ask committee members to direct their questions to each witness they want, or in general. We will start with six minutes again.

To the witnesses, when we get towards closing the six minutes, I will give you the hand signal.

We will start with Mrs. Wagantall. Thank you.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

First of all, from the bottom of my heart, I really want to thank you for being here today. I can only imagine how difficult this is. The goal here is to make things better. I am hearing reoccurring themes here that should be taken care of, and we certainly want to do our part to make sure that happens.

Kimberly, you were talking about your issues. We don't have anything in front of us, and I think we would be remiss not to hear your next point, which was about family. Would you like to share something in that regard with us, please?

[Kimberly Davis]

Sure.

Mr. Harris's story about the veteran who passed away is one of my fears for my children. If the veteran is still alive, families receive medical benefits only if the veteran approves it. We don't have independent medical benefits and we don't have independent dental benefits; when I quit my job, I left all that behind. Family members don't receive a VAC file number. We should have a VAC file number. Children of deceased veterans, spouses, and widows should all be given a VAC file number. If something were to happen.... It's a gauntlet for us families if something.... Heaven forbid that sometime it's my husband, because we don't have access.

For their entire lives, our children have grown up with a father who has PTSD. Everyone wonders how this affects them. There's a research paper. Ironically, it was written out of Bosnia. These children struggle, but no one knows what impact having a father with PTSD has on them. I'll briefly read this to you. It says:

...children of the veterans reported significantly higher levels of conflict in their families; families of veterans with PTSD experienced more problems in parenting as well as marital relationships [and] children of veterans with PTSD showed more behavioural problems than children of veterans without PTSD, including aggression, delinquency, hyperactivity, and difficulty in developing and maintaining close friendships. ...In conclusion, the influence of secondary traumatization of wives is significant.

Yet for me to get my kids help, I have to go through my husband, through his case manager. I'll tell you right now that we stopped case management. We deal with resolution officers. The last time we dealt with a case manager was the day I was sitting at my dining room table and my husband took off for 45 minutes. I didn't know if he was ever coming back. I had that case manager call me. I was crying to him, saying, “I need help, I don't know where he went.” He'd left his keys, his phone, and his wallet on the dining room table, and took off. We live in the middle of 80 acres of woods. Where could he go?

The response I got out of his case manager, and why we don't deal with him anymore, was, “Oh well, you can call the RCMP. There's nothing I can do. I can't help you.”

The RCMP will only get involved if they're gone for 24 hours, yet I'm sitting there thinking the worst-case scenario about my husband. What am I going to tell my kids when they come home if their father is not here? This is what we struggle with as primary caregivers: the what-if scenarios. He disappears in the woods, and I think he's gone to kill himself, because you don't know what their headspace is.

For these children to not be able to have access to basic medical services.... I had to fight for my daughter to get psychological services. These children are vulnerable. You don't see that. VAC doesn't see that until I'm sitting in a case manager's office crying because my daughter got caught up with an online predator because she was vulnerable. She was looking for a father figure because her father is injured. He has issues with interpersonal relationships.

I picked up and moved my family. We moved. I put in the plans to build a new house and we moved and built the house in four months, just so my husband could have a sanctuary that will help him. We have horses. They help him, but he still has issues. He doesn't want to deal with people. He can't. If he gets into a confrontation.... Do you know what his psychiatrist said? The psychiatrist said to him, “If you find yourself in a confrontation where you feel that you're going to become aggressive, call the police to protect the other person.” When he goes into a rage, he blacks out. He doesn't know when he comes out of that rage what has happened.

I have broken doors in my brand new house. I had a hole in the wall in my brand new house. The house wasn't even a year old. They go into rages because they are frustrated. Now my husband has lost his licence. He can't drive anymore.

We are playing with medications, trying to figure out what works for him. Well, one medication made him think he was Superman: “Oh, I can move a refrigerator off the back of a pickup truck in flip-flops.” Yes. He fell off the back of that truck, with the refrigerator landing on him. He ended up with a subdural hematoma—a bleed in the brain—and a severe concussion. He was hospitalized for 24 hours. The only reason they released him after 24 hours was that he was coming home to me, or else they would have kept him in for a week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We will move to the—

[Kimberly Davis]

He can't drive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We will have to stop there. We will come back.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mrs. Romanado, go ahead.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you, Dana, Kimberly, and Matthew, to you and your family members.

Dana, you have served, and I want to thank you for your service and that of your family members and your friends. I know it may sound like empty words, especially when you have come back here three times to present yourself, but as a parent of two sons currently serving, I can guarantee you they are heartfelt. Everyone on this committee has been listening to the witnesses' testimony over the course of this study, and I can guarantee you we don't come out of this the same. It is genuine.

I would like to talk a little bit.... Michael Blais, you mentioned a lack of proactive approach to the treatment of our veterans, and I think you touched on an incredibly important aspect. What we have been hearing is that it is a very reactive approach. We wait for the veteran to come to us and say, “I need help.” We wait for the veteran to fill out the forms. We wait for the veteran to prove the injury. We wait for it.

I would like your suggestions. What would you recommend in terms of flipping that on its head and having a proactive approach to the care for our veterans and their families? We are seeing that we may have an x number of veterans, but when you calculate the families that are supporting them, we have a lot more veterans, in my view.

[Michael Blais]

You know, you should also put in there “when it comes to crisis” because, fundamentally, half the time that is when we get Veterans Affairs involved—when Kimberly's husband goes adrift, when something like this happens. When I say “proactive”, I mean across the board. This is not only a matter of being active on the mandate of Veterans Affairs Canada, of all the policies catered for your individual case. I have found through experience....

A lot of the time it is not the fault of the workers. They are overburdened. They are trying to do the best they can, trying to cope, but they are not providing the services proactively. They are going reactive because of that very situation.

They are in a position where they would like to help. They would like to phone Kimberly up and say, “Listen, I have a list in front of me. Here is everything that your husband is entitled to. Is he getting this? Has he gotten that? What about your children?” All these things.... This is the most important thing. I believe it is the department's obligation also to take care of the entire family unit, and that includes spouse and children.

We have issues, I hear, where.... Kimberly says, “What about my children's post-secondary education?” Why do we have charities doing that? It is ridiculous. I mean, God bless them for doing it, but we as a nation should be taking care of the fallen's children and the children of those who have been wounded and are suffering, and I mean suffering. When I was addicted to opiates through my time, I know how sensitive my children were around me, the terrible impact it had upon my life, and there was no care. There was no support, nor did I reach out for it. I was adrift. At that time, if a case manager had phoned me and said “How are you doing? What is your drug input like? Are you getting out? Are you engaging and interacting with the community? Is there anything I can do to help?”, that would have changed things in an exponential manner.

We have new policies coming. We have just sustained 12 years of vicious combat in Afghanistan. We have paid the frigging price, and now we have expectations of the government and the department. Our expectations are not excessive. All we want is to be taken care of and be respected for our sacrifice and have our families acknowledged for their sacrifice.

Let me be very clear. The sacrifice from the families.... When we deploy and come back wounded, when we come back not the same man or woman who left that spouse, there are consequences. We can mitigate those consequences if we are proactive, if we stand forth and have a department that is willing to engage.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Do I still have some time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

One minute.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you.

Dana, I don't know if you'd be willing to share with us a bit about the experience of the transition from an active service member to a recipient of veteran care. Could you talk to us a bit about any of the issues that came up in terms of the transition, please?