Veterans Affairs Committee on May 12th, 2016

[Dana Batho]

It's not a problem. Just to clarify, I actually don't get a normal pension. I didn't serve for 10 years. I served for seven, so that doesn't entitle me to any kind of pension.

Currently, I'm on long-term disability for the first two years. After that, I'm really not sure what's going to happen or whether I'll be able to work. Nobody has really explained fully how that gets assessed. The connection between SISIP, Manulife, and VAC is really unclear to me even now.

Basically, when I released I went to the SCAN seminars. You learn a lot of things. I was posted to the JPSU for my last year of service, and they help you speak to some VAC officers there. They helped me with my disability award, and I received that before I released. I think I only got 10%, because apparently living with chronic pain that's never going to get better is less severe than losing a limb that you learn to work around, so I'm not quite sure how those tables are working. Right now I literally live across the street from this conference centre. I was barely able to cross the street. That's how bad my neck injury is, and it's getting worse, so, yes, those tables for the disability award are a little messed up. I'm not sure who decided on those.

As for the transition, I specifically remember being told by the JPSU VAC officer that anything to do with my disability claim would be completely covered, so all my medications and all of my massage therapy would be completely covered, no question. At the time I was paying $3,000 a year for my own massage therapy. On a second lieutenant's income, that's a lot of money, but that was literally the only therapy I was getting because of the inconsistency in treatments. I was getting 10 sessions of something, and then a break of six months waiting for approval for more, and then 10 sessions. It was pointless. I got so frustrated I had to give up because I just couldn't mentally cope with it anymore, and it wasn't physically helping me.

When I was releasing, I thought, “Okay, well, at least that stuff is going to be covered. At least now I don't have to pay out of my own income for my massage therapy or whatever else I need.” Then, when I released, I was told I was entitled to, I think, about 10 to 20 massage appointments a year and that medications may be covered. It's really confusing. I'm still learning how to do things.

My previous case manager approved unlimited massage for me up until June, so I was going to see the massage therapist. When he retired, the new interim case manager called me and said that I had had 89 massages that weren't authorized, and that those were $100 each—

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We're going to have to stop there and we'll have to come back. I'm sorry. We're out of time.

[Dana Batho]

It's not a problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Mathyssen is next.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank everyone for their testimony. I can hear some real frustrations. I would like to start with you, Kim.

You said, “This is the third time I've come to give this testimony”, and you were here as recently as a year ago. Am I correct in hearing genuine frustration, genuine despair at the fact that this is the third time that you've told this story and at the number of times you have to tell it?

[Kimberly Davis]

Well, that's the question. If you go back and look at the list, how many of us have been witness to these meetings? How many more meetings do we have to be witness to?

Last year, I was flown up there. I sat in front of the committee and told them my story. I told them the stories of families that were going through situations similar to the ones my family was going through, if not worse ones. What are we supposed to do?

Then I was asked to comment on Bill C-58 for the committee. I drew up a report and submitted it electronically to the committee. I never heard anything about it. I never heard why it wasn't considered. Why did we still end up getting the $7,200 family caregiver relief benefit when it was broken down? Why are we doing algebraic equations for a retirement income security benefit?

You are asking veterans, some of whom can't fill out applications because just reading one question sets them off, to calculate an algebraic equation as to what they are going to get when they are 65. How does that make sense?

That's not to mention my algebraic equation if my husband passes, and what I might get. Well, first you have to calculate 75% of this, minus this, plus this, and oh, then divided by this. Really? It doesn't make sense. Why can we not make this stuff simple? It is not rocket science. It is not brain surgery. It is taking care of the veterans that this country sent overseas to give us our rights and freedoms. Why does it have to be so difficult?

Dana was talking about her 10, 20, and 80 sessions. I go through that every 20 sessions with my husband. His physiotherapist, his chiropractor, his massage therapist.... This is all for pain management. The pain is never going away. It is management. He goes through his granted 20 sessions in the first part of the year. He is going to two to three appointments a week. Well, how long do 20 sessions last if you are going to two to three appointments a week? They might last seven to 10 weeks in a 52-week period. The providers have to complete five to eight extension requests in order to properly treat their veteran.

A year ago, I asked the department to review my husband's paramedicine file, look at how many physiotherapy, chiropractic, and massage therapy sessions he has gone through in the last three years, and please grant him the amount that would help him manage his pain instead of having this break in treatment.

I know exactly what Dana is going through, because I go through this frustration with my husband every seven to 10 weeks.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

We have heard—

[Kimberly Davis]

It is frustrating to deal with it, and for veterans to deal with it on their own? Good luck. You are setting them up to have a rage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Do you have another question?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, I do.

I wanted to speak with Matthew. You talked about something that has been very much on my mind in the last 10 years, the fact that soldiers can't be weak in front of civilians. They depend very much on that esprit de corps, the camaraderie and understanding of other veterans.

My concern has to do with long-term care and the fact that if you are a post-Korean vet, you are not entitled to long-term care in a veterans hospital unless you have catastrophic injuries.

Could you comment on the need for care throughout a veteran's life, no matter where and when that individual served?

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Just to reiterate some things you said, having another veteran to talk to would always be fantastic. I find that whether you served in Afghanistan, Korea, the Golan Heights, or Bosnia, we don't care. We know it was different times, and that's fine. I've been to Bosnia and Afghanistan twice now, but I can still talk to somebody who was in Cyprus, for instance, in the 1970s. I'm fascinated by stories when the Korea veterans talk to us.

It's just a matter of talking to a veteran, somebody who's been in the system, who knows and who understands. As a veteran, you can talk to other veterans more freely and you find that when you are talking to them, you see in their face that they understand. You can almost be—I don't want to say weak, but you can be more open about how you feel or some of your frustrations, because it's okay to talk to another soldier about that.

When you're talking to a civilian, you don't want to. It's just part of our training. It's part of our thought.

I joined when I was 19 years old. I got sucked into it all and I believed it all. I see that some of my friends now and some of the troops that I had to lead are going through these same things. They're coming into the messes and they're talking about it to each other. They don't want to go to their teacher and tell them. When you try to explain to your teacher, an employer, or anyone, someone in VAC—it doesn't matter where or what you're trying to tell them—it's difficult to express yourself.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Harris, we'll have to move on to our next member.

Go ahead, Mr. Eyolfson.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you all for coming here today. I know some of you have been here before. I'm new to this process and I'm finding this very troublesome to listen to.

Mr. Harris, you were talking about the suck-it-up attitude that people are subjected to. I understand that to some extent. I've practised medicine for 20 years. We're from a profession that is told to suck it up and not look weak, but I personally know three colleagues who've committed suicide, so I understand what that kind of culture does to people.

What can be done in the army culture or the military culture to help get around that, to get people to ask for help and to acknowledge that they're vulnerable?

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

That's a big one, changing the culture.

In the military or where I'm from, the infantry, it's very much, “You gotta get up. You gotta go.” That suck-it-up term is a military term. It's been around since I was young and doing all kinds of stuff. When you fall off the helicopter or whatever and you hurt yourself, you get up and you go.

It's always to help. They say, “Come on. Get up there because we need you up there.” That whole “you don't want to let your buddies down” type of thing is great. You don't want to let your buddies down.

Maybe the term “suck it up” is.... People have to think about what it is they're trying to suck up. If some guy's coming back from war and he has PTSD, he doesn't have a family of thousands of people when he goes to a plant, like in World War II, where everybody there was at war and they could all help each other out. Now you go to a call centre and you sit around at a desk. There's nobody else around who even understands you, or they just think you're the crazy army guy. If you complain about something, they say, “Well, what are you complaining about? You should suck it up.” It's a horrible thing to say to somebody.

To change that culture, I don't know. It's so difficult because I think part of it is almost needed in the military. You have to go on. The big thing here is maybe just to explain that you're always going somewhere to help each other. Instead of saying the words “suck it up“, it could be “Get out there and help out your buddy”, or “Go see a buddy for help”.

I hope that answers it. I don't know if I did a very good job of answering that, but I hope you get my meaning.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I knew it was going to be a very difficult question. I anticipated it was something with no easy answer.

Would something like a peer contact network between veterans and active service members be helpful, to get the perspective from currently serving and previously serving members?

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Absolutely, and that is what our group does. We just talk to each other. We all pretty well know each other, or we know the same people. A lot of these guys are still serving. We have health professionals, doctors, and all kinds of people in there. We all help each other, and we can come to each other. Absolutely, that is what helps us, coming to each other and saying, “I am going through this issue right now. Has anybody else gone through a similar issue, or can somebody guide me through something?” It is very open. We have sergeants, privates, colonels, all talking from the heart.

It is a closed group. It is secret, or whatever you call it, so you can speak. There is no rank in it, essentially. You can talk and say how you are feeling, and then other people will help guide you into the right channels, whether it is to go set up an account, branch out to somebody in British Columbia, because that is where you currently are, or go through paperwork with Veterans Affairs Canada. Yes, we all help each other out.

One guy needed some food. He is an old-time veteran, and he needed some food because his wife got hurt or something and he ran out of money. It is very simple little things.

We had one guy who was stuck in South America. We just got together, got the money together ourselves from own pockets, not through any organization, and got him a plane ticket back.

Talking to each other is easy. We can be vulnerable. We all understand that we fail sometimes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have 50 seconds.

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Veterans helping veterans is the way to go.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

I am going to throw this question out to everyone. It is going to sound like a ridiculously obvious question, but I ask it in these words because of a statement given by a prominent political figure a number of years ago.

Does Canada owe a sacred duty to its veterans?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

That will have to be a yes or no answer. I am sorry.

[Michael Blais]

Yes.

[Kimberly Davis]

Yes.

[Dana Batho]

Yes.

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Yes.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you very much.