Evidence of meeting #23 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Veteran, Trauma Healing Centers
It's not even sensible. We are trying to bring telemedicine onboard to help those people, so at least they can talk to somebody. We don't like to do the medical side of things over a computer. That's not something we believe in.
Veteran, Trauma Healing Centers
When it comes to talking to somebody, I can be standing right in front of you, or we can talk to you through a TV, and we're still getting the chance to do a bit of therapy.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
That's good to hear. We'll have to follow up on that.
Andrew, it looks like parts of the Shaping Purpose could be done earlier. We were talking about preparing soldiers or Armed Forces—and I understand the role is to become Armed Forces—but at some point life is going to transition.
I look at gifts, and passions, and values. Those are things...could they be discovered well in advance, so that you're not left...or do you feel it has to start happening once they're in that process of being released?
Vice-President, Program Delivery, Shaping Purpose
I think there's value in doing it before they're being released, but I also think that their—
Vice-President, Program Delivery, Shaping Purpose
—gifts, passions, and values will change when they're leaving the Forces, because they're going to be without the ethics and values of the Canadian Forces. If you go 12 to 30 years in the Canadian Forces, then that's all you know. You live and breathe it. When you don't have that in your life anymore, and you're not putting on that uniform, then you are a different person, and it's a massive culture shock going from the Forces into the civilian world.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
This is in between processing from the career transition assistance program, and then there's the vocational rehabilitation program. The word “rehabilitation” in there sounds like you are sick, rather than making a transition. That's just something I noticed. Who will be paying for this? It's all tax dollars; it's all the government, between DND and VAC.
Vice-President, Program Delivery, Shaping Purpose
In my opinion, it should be joint. I've had conversations where people have said that DND should be paying for the services because the guys who are in are going there with DND. So if they're using a CanVet program, that's VAC's money. When you look at it, if they already have a plan to transition out and they're not using a SISIP or a CanVet program, you see it's a massive savings for VAC. I think the easy thing would be just to say a 50/50 split, or let somebody else figure it out.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
As all of us have done, I want to thank you all for being here. I think it speaks to something that we've heard in testimony, that you need the face-to-face occurrences. We need it as well. People could have sent us slide decks or CDs, DVDs, or whatever. To have Canadian soldiers in the room with us and talk about these things is really remarkable.
I've tried throughout my life to actually make myself as informed as possible on issues for soldiers. There's always the historic interest. Sarajevo was an example. But then there is the personal side, which first came out in a book that I read in 1976, by Ron Kovic, called Born on the Fourth of July. He was a Vietnam veteran quadriplegic, and so on.
There have been some books written. Mr. Doucette, you wrote a book, and I'm wondering, because it was an honest look at soldiering in the context of Sarajevo, did you sell a lot of those books?
Retired Peer Support Coordinator, Veteran, As an Individual
Well, I don't winter in Florida with the money I made from that.
Retired Peer Support Coordinator, Veteran, As an Individual
What was great were the comments I got from soldiers and veterans when they said, “Jeez, that was me.” They identified, and so on and so forth.
My second book is Better off Dead: That's a comment they told me a lot when I was working with the operational stress program. It's their stories. I think there were about a dozen stories of individuals I dealt with who were willing to write it up...“Yes, I want people to know.” There are aspects about the family, about sexual assault, about Veterans Affairs and the dealings it has with the veterans. It's nice to be able to say, “Well, if you want to know, that guy will come and talk to you; it's not made-up stuff.”
The best thing was when somebody said, “Fred, you know, if I hadn't written in your book I'd probably be dead.” One person said that; so all the time writing it and trying to get it published was all well worth it as far as I was concerned.
There is a lot of information out there, but there's not much on the personal side of the injury. You can read papers and doctors' stuff. That's what that book is about, anyway.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
What I'm trying to get at here is the general awareness.
For instance, Mr. Estabrooks, in your experience, how many people in the general public can you have a real conversation with about the issues that you faced? Are there very many at all? I know that your peers, your fellow former soldiers, would understand that, but in the general public can you talk to anybody about what you have been through?
Volunteer Peer Support Advisor, Veteran, As an Individual
It's improving, sir, but I still find myself caught off guard. I try to be very open with what I've gone through, and every once in a while you talk to someone and you can see by the look on their face or their reaction that they don't believe in PTSD to this day, or they're not interested in talking about mental health or hearing about it.
As far as a percentage is concerned, that would be difficult, but I would say we're still very small. Probably 20% or 30% are aware of mental health issues, and it's growing. But there's still a lot of work to do, sir.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Mr. Bungay, I'm interested in your Trauma Healing Centers, and the fact that you have a RMT in your group. I've read a lot of stuff that states hands-on healing is exceptional in its own way, beyond just making your headache go away or something.
Veteran, Trauma Healing Centers
It's huge. The services that we offer, they're all holistic. Whenever I speak to RCMP, Corrections Canada, whoever—never the military, oddly enough—I always talk about the spokes in the wheel. We talk about how you are the wheel, and there are certain spokes that you need to sort of heal. Yes, medication is one of them. There are certain staples that you need like medication, psychology, and nutrition.
Everybody may not need massage therapy. For me, I do yoga every day. That helps me. I know some people who like to go to the range and shoot. I know some people who like to go to yoga or they like to get a massage. They like to walk the dog. Whatever it takes, but it's a combination of the spokes that sends the people to recovery.
When I say recovery, we're never going to be out of this. We're always going to have post-traumatic stress, but I can tell you right now, if you could see me from 2013-14 to where I am today, you would pretty much say that I've recovered. Yes, I have my moments, don't get me wrong, I still have my moments, but when I have my moments now I know how to deal with them.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Mr. Garsch, your approach is different from the therapies that we heard from the Trauma Healing Centers. How do you think they would harmonize?
Vice-President, Program Delivery, Shaping Purpose
Basically, it's assessing what tools in the tool box need to be used. That's really what it is. Individuals who feel like they're having a difficult transition, and there's 27% who leave, if they want to take part in Shaping Purpose, it may help to plan their life forward. They can then identify what tools are out there that they actually need to go and access. If it's Trauma Healing, if it's Prospect, or if it's Prince's Operation Entrepreneur, whatever programs are out there, the programs are a way of identifying tools from the tool box that you need to use in order to move forward.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Bungay, Mr. Garsch, Mr. Estabrooks and Mr. Doucette, thank you for being here.
We, as committee members, are fully aware of the courage it takes to come here and share with us your personal stories, so thank you very much for taking the energy to do this. For us, you're very precious as witnesses today because I think you all are doing something right now in life that puts you in contact with a lot of veterans each day, every day, so I have some general questions that I would like all of you to answer, one after the other. Maybe we can start each time with Mr. Doucette.
Because you hear veterans every single day of your life and hear their problems and concerns, can you please tell me what, according to you—because here we're studying service delivery, so sometimes we have to ask specific questions on that—is the number-one problem with service delivery, that is to say, from what you've heard?
Monsieur Doucette, please.
Retired Peer Support Coordinator, Veteran, As an Individual
The fellows I talk to all have mental health concerns, so for the most part, it's trying to find a therapist. A lot of them do not want to get a VAC therapist. You go up to the OSI clinic and have your therapy there, and some of them feel uncomfortable with that. There are a lot of therapists out there in the community, especially around Fredericton now, who specialize in trauma therapy, and that's what they need. Once a person is in with that therapist and moving along, just leave it alone until it makes its own course.
I think in a lot of places the problem is therapists. I had guys in northern New Brunswick who couldn't get a therapist. They had a therapist who would drive around every week. Not everybody lives in Ottawa, Toronto, or Montreal, you know. A lot of the times the guys with these mental health injuries, they go away. They want to get away. They want to hide. Then when they finally do step forward and say, “I need help”, there's no recourse for them to get it.
